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== More clutter ==
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Population density per square mile should be LOWER than density per square kilometer. [[User:WikiMedford|WikiMedford]] ([[User talk:WikiMedford|talk]]) 13:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
:Mile is a larger unit (1 mile = 1.9 kilometre). Therefore, the population living in one square mile (covers more area means more people) will be high density and low density in per square kilometre (covers less area means less people). <span style="background:#00FA9A;color:#11e">[[user:dineshswamiin|Dinesh]]</span> | <span style="background:#FF69B4;color:#11e">[[User_talk:Dineshswamiin|Talk]]</span> 04:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
== Clutter in lead ==
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::::::::But you, Moxy, appear to be [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries the prime interpreter of that modernity.] [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 16:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Correct as protocols evolves to make articles better so does our advice on what is best for accessibility. Have you looked at how ALL other FA and GA countries articles look? (no text sandwich, no horizontal scrolling etc) We are an active project that spends lots of time on managing our articles FA and GA as standards evolve. FA standards and accessibility problems from 5, 10, 20 years ago have changed alot...thats why the project sets recommendations and links to the protocols that have changed over the years. Accessibility should be the main concern......thus why all the projects recommendations our based/linked to our evolving guidelines or policies. As you can see editor after editor raises different concerns based on protocols here to no avail. {{@|JDiala}} makes some very good points...but basically you tell them and all l its an old FA article and you want no changes.....thus the article looks antiquated. The fact ever edit/change needs a talk is a problem. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 19:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with the specific critiques that JDiala has raised, particularly on the human genetic diversity and Rigveda points ("resolutely vigilant"?) The current lead tends towards verbosity and flattery, and should be adjusted. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
::::Seriously, flattery? Are you aware that the Rg Veda is the base of all reconstructions of [[Proto Indo-European]], so rigorously was it orally transmitted.? It has no variant readings. There were some dozen different forms and orders of memorization and subsequent proof reading. It is easy to swing by an article and accuse it of verbosity, the usual complaint of [[WP:Lead fixation]]. It takes much much longer to learn the content. Please don't make silly accusations of flattery. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
*I'm okay with some trimming (resolutely vigilant, for example, could be replaced by "a strong oral tradition" if we want to keep the emphasis). I also think we should give some space to Moxy to suggest changes relating to accessibility. [[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 20:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
*:"Strong oral tradition" is vague. It could mean that India had a long-lasting but infirmly transmitted oral tradition. We are talking about an exceptional tradition of oral transmission.
*:Please see: [[Indian_mathematics#Oral_tradition]]. [[Frits Staal]] and [[Michael Witzel]] have both written about this. It is absolutely exceptional. It is not flattery, as someone upstairs seems to have discerned because we also point to the early codification of the caste system and of the subservience of women. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:I also think the lead should be shortened by removing excessive details that are just not important or interesting for the average reader who simply wants a concise introduction to India's history, culture and global perspective. I also think that many references in the lead should be removed, at least those covering largely undisputed claims. I mean, just the lead section and infobox alone already cite over 70 references, which is absurd for a featured article. Lead sections (and, to a lesser extent, infoboxes) are intended to summarize the most important key aspects of the article and therefore usually don't have to include references when their statements are cited later in the body of the article. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 10:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2024 ==▼
::Please read the talk page archives of the Summer of 2019. This version of the lead was composed for the page's WP main page appearance on 2 October 2019, Gandhi's 150 birth anniversary. It received the input of over a dozen, maybe two dozen, editors including many experienced WPians. This page has some 5000 watchers and receives nearly 40K views a day.
::You have not even bothered to read the beginning of this section where I stated that if you remove the citations, people begin to dicker with the lead. Its not like we always had citations. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::In other words, it is easy to wax about generalities, but much harder to actually formulate something. Typically on this page, we propose changes a sentence at a time. Please propose a specific change in a specific sentence and give some evidence of its [[wP:DUE|due weight]] in the literature. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:46, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::"You have not even bothered to read the beginning of this section where I stated that if you remove the citations, people begin to dicker with the lead."
:::Yes, I have read that part. And I think the fact that other users frequently challenge statements and add citations to the lead is not a valid argument against keeping it clean. It's very well possible; you can revert those edits, protect the page more strictly, and add comments for editors pointing out where certain claims are already sourced in the body of the article. Numerous other frequently edited and highly visited country articles like [[United States]], [[Canada]], [[China]], [[Japan]], [[Germany]], [[South Korea]], and [[Russia]] have also managed to keep their leads clean. Also, I never said that this article has to have a completely sourceless lead: Simply reducing the number of citations would already make the lead much cleaner. For example, the [[United Kingdom]] article has approximately half the number of citations in its lead compared to this article, which is still relatively high, but looks already much cleaner. In addition, when the lead is shortened in content, citations would of course also become fewer in parallel. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Please propose changes to one sentence, not generalities. Please also cite sources that bear out the truth of that sentence and its due weight in the literature. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 15:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::It's not my intention to propose specific changes here, and I would open a new thread if I did. I just want to convince and motivate others like you that it's very well possible to keep the lead clean and that we should do it. User [[User:JDiala|JDiala]] already made some good initial suggestions for it which you opposed for odd reasons. Repeatedly referring to the age, number of page watchers and visitors of the article as well as the history of how the article became the way it is today and how many editors were involved in finding consensuses are no sensible counterarguments. Consensuses, no matter how old they are or how many users have been involved, are neither infallible nor set in stone and can change. We already gave suggestions for changes. Now it's your turn to give concrete and real arguments against them. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::Again, what is the point of offering dime-a-dozen generalities? Propose one specific sentence-change or for that matter one of JDiala's in a separate section. You can coordinate with them and cite some sources for reliability and due weight. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 16:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''General comment and proposal''' I just looked at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=India&oldid=942032816 February 2020 version of the lead]. As you will see, it was much cleaner and flowed better. But then various Wikipedians appeared and tied the page down in RfC's about ''one word'' in the lead that they did not like. So, a compromise was reached to accommodate them and the flow became disrupted. This has happened quite a few times. The version in place now is not how I would write it today.
:This article has had a long run as an FA—20 years in a month or two. A better option would be to simply have the FA star removed and then you guys can duke it out and take it afresh to FAR or FAC, have six-month long discussions on which images to include and which to not. Frankly, I have lost interest in the article, tired of reading the very predictable manifestations of Lead Fixation. The article needs many pairs of fresh eyes. So, why not have the FA status removed? I can ask Sandy Georgia or Ealdgyth or DrKay at FAR. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 14:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::But when I say, "Why don't you rewrite the Politics section, or the Sports section, or the Education section, to raise them to FA standards?" not a peep is heard, or if one peep is, it fades away soon thereafter. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 14:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Archive after archive page with simple suggestions to no avail. Most experienced editors have simply given up on the paqe. FA ststus in an editor bases data system .....meaningless to our readers so most dont care but can see the problems. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 18:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
== Indian diaspora ==
Would it be appropriate to address the [[Indian diaspora]] in this article anywhere? I am thinking it could perhaps be added as a link as part of the "See also" template at the start of the [[India#Demographics, languages and religion|Demographics section]].
Discussing the diaspora would tie into some of the history of India (i.e. the British rule and the contemporary [[Indian indenture system|indentured labour system]], as well as post-British India's significant emigration) and give a clearer picture of India's relationship to the world. Another way of seeing the diaspora's importance to India can be seen in the following excerpt on economics: "It is estimated that the total assets of the Indian Diaspora around the world is close to $1 trillion, half of which are financial assets [...] And according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) data, by 2017, Indian nominal Gross Domestic Product (GDP) was $2.46 trillion, while the annual income of the Indian Diaspora is estimated to be $400 billion, which is around 20 percent of the Indian GDP. India is the largest recipient of migrant remittances in the world, receiving over $50 billion in 2010."[https://cejiss.org/modis-cultural-diplomacy-and-role-of-indian-diaspora]
As an example of ways this could be done successfully here, a brief glance has shown me that there are two instances of the Chinese diaspora being discussed in the article for [[China]]:
* "(In the [[China#Fall of the Qing dynasty|History section]]) In the 19th century, the great [[Chinese emigration|Chinese diaspora]] began. Losses due to emigration were added to by conflicts and catastrophes such as the [[Northern Chinese Famine of 1876–1879]], in which between 9 and 13 million people died.
* (In the [[China#Cuisine|Culture section]]) Offshoots of Chinese food, such as [[Hong Kong cuisine]] and [[American Chinese cuisine]], have emerged in the [[Chinese diaspora]]."
[[User:GreekApple123|GreekApple123]] ([[User talk:GreekApple123|talk]]) 00:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
@[[User:Fowler&fowler]] I have three sources that discuss the importance of the Indian diaspora in overcoming American resistance towards the nuclear treaty:
* ([https://www.economist.com/international/2023/06/12/indias-diaspora-is-bigger-and-more-influential-than-any-in-history the source I already used]) "The diaspora then binds India to the West in turn. The most stunning example of this emerged in 2008, when America signed an agreement that, in effect, recognised India as a nuclear power, despite its never having signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (along with Pakistan and Israel). Lobbying and fundraising by Indian-Americans helped push the deal through America’s Congress."
* [https://www.icwa.in/show_content.php?lang=1&level=3&ls_id=4891&lid=3480] "Next, it was mainly the lobbying efforts by The National Federation of Indian American Association to crusade to relax the U.S. policy over sanctions on India. As a result, the sanctions Imposed on India by the NSG (after Nuclear Proliferation in 1998) were removed on the U.S. recommendation. The former U.S. President Bill Clinton on his visit to India himself specified of immense pressure by the Indian Diaspora to uplift the sanctions. Another instance is the ID’s notable persuasion towards finalizing of the Indo-US Civil Nuclear Co-operation Agreement. This ‘''123 agreement’'' got confirmed in July 2007 and signed in October 2008 enabled India to enjoy all provisions of the Non- Proliferation Treaty."
* [https://www.america-times.com/the-indian-diaspora-past-present-and-future/] "Lastly, we [i.e. the diaspora] attempt to influence our host country governments to pursue policies favorable to India, such as the intense lobbying by the Indian Diaspora in the US to get a recalcitrant US Senate to approve the Nuclear Treaty."
[[User:GreekApple123|GreekApple123]] ([[User talk:GreekApple123|talk]]) 18:04, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
:For nearly 18 years, the guiding principle of sourcing on this page has been to have as far as is possible only the following kinds of sources, per Wikipedia policy:
:# For reliability, we need [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP]]
:# For [[WP:DUE|due weight]], i.e. in order to reflect the consensus in 1, or in the absence of a consensus, the notable controversy, we need [[WP:TERTIARY]], especially
:##introductory text-books published by scholarly publishers as they are vetted for due weight, or
:##reviews of the journal literature, companions (e.g. ''Oxford Companion to ...''), edited hand-books, etc published by scholarly publishers as they describe the consensus or lack thereof, (but generally not other encyclopedias such as ''Britannica'')
:##Furthermore, there should be significant coverage in that tertiary sources, not just a sentence of two.
:If you examine the history sections, or the visual art, the cuisine, the clothing, they all follow this broad approach. The reason is that our entries not only have to be reliable, but they also have to reflect the overall stable trend in the scholarly literature.
:Your first source would be good for an illustration (necessarily narrow scale) of a trend (which on this page is necessarily broad scale). So, if something general, or broad scale, finds significant mention an introductory textbook published by say Cambridge University Press, then its illustration can be occasionally chosen from ''The Economist'' or ''The Economic and Political Weekly'' etc.—that way a reader does not become engulfed continuously in the prose of generalities.
:I have to be away for some time, therefore is as far as I am able to take this discussion forward. Thanks for posting. . All the best, [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 23:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
::Super [[User:Muthuram123456|Muthuram123456]] ([[User talk:Muthuram123456|talk]]) 11:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2024 ==
I need edit Request <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Muthuram123456|Muthuram123456]] ([[User talk:Muthuram123456#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Muthuram123456|contribs]]) 11:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:@[[User:Muthuram123456|Muthuram123456]] Use the template {{tl|Edit extended-protected}} to flag that you're making a request, and then describe what you want to change, as well as the sources that support the change. —'''[[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]]''' ([[User_talk:C.Fred|talk]]) 11:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
== A quote from one book ==
:Yes, [[user:Moxy|Moxy]], what I added to a new "Further reading" section today is, indeed, "a quote from one book".
:It is an interesting review of a book that appears to shed some new light on the role of the over-touted "[[Silk Road]]" with respect to the amazing historic influence of Indian culture on Europe and the West.
:If it is reinstated, please add at the end a quotation mark, which I forgot.
:Thanks.
:[[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 23:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
::This is not the article for a random quote like that....and there is already a bibliography section that's vastly oversized. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 23:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
{{Edit extended-protected|India|answered=yes}}
Change the introduction to add one more detailed paragraph to highlight India's international relations (which has been done for other countries but not for India, Wikipedia is quite biased to India):
India is one of the founding members of the United Nations and a member of several international organizations such as the G20, BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), and the Commonwealth of Nations. India is also a member of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Trade Organization (WTO), and a key partner in regional forums like SAARC and BIMSTEC. With a rapidly growing economy, India is the world's third-largest economy by GDP at purchasing power parity, and the fifth-largest by nominal GDP. Additionally, India has the world's second-largest standing military, reflecting its significant defense capabilities. It is a middle power, and has been often described as an emerging great power.
The full version of this text can be included in relevant sections of the article body if needed. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:E318:9F00:965:ECEF:A827:BA34|2A02:C7C:E318:9F00:965:ECEF:A827:BA34]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:E318:9F00:965:ECEF:A827:BA34|talk]]) 21:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> The lead is already quite long, and some of this is redundant. I personally think there is scope to reduce history and add more on the current country, but that would require a longer discussion. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 06:00, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
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