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::::::::Book page 25 quote:"To one of these processes we have already alluded - the slow amalgama- tion of the numerous, fragmented East Slav communal units... in the area in which Kiev would arise.
::::::::Book page 26 quote:"Murky though our knowledge of this period is, it can be assumed that the East Slavs in general and the Polianians in par- ticular were well on the way to laying the foundation for the vast political, commercial, and cultural entity that would be called Kievan Rus'." [[Special:Contributions/46.200.75.110|46.200.75.110]] ([[User talk:46.200.75.110|talk]]) 18:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::This is information that is already available in this article with proper citations. The only difference is that 46.200.75.110 wants to emphasise, suggest ot claim that the Polyane were already called Rus' and had already founded Kyivan Rus' before the Varangians arrived and conquered Kyiv in the late 9th century. That flies directly in the face of the literary, linguistic and archaeological evidence that most of these Slavonic, Finno-Ugric or other peoples were tributaries of the Khazar Khaganate when the Varangians (supposedly under Askold and Dir, later under Oleh and/or Ihor) came and took over control, forcing these peoples to stop paying the Khazars and instead pay tribute to them.
:::::::::The idea that {{xt|the Polianians in particular were well on the way to laying the foundation for the vast political, commercial, and cultural entity that would be called Kievan Rus'}} is just [[anti-Normanism]] through a backdoor. Granted, the Varangians didn't build the city of Kyiv. But the Polyane didn't establish the network of tribute-paying peoples dependent on the city of Kyiv after the Varangians conquered it.
:::::::::At [[Calling of the Varangians]], I have outlined how modern scholars such as Paul Magocsi and Janet Martin have reconstructed how Kyivan Rus' was established. It wasn't by invitation, nor did a state already exist; the Varangians began by raiding, then by what we might call ''[[:wikt:Brandschatzung]]'', and eventually demanding regular tribute of subdued peoples. That might not be a flattering story for the local Slavs, but that's what the evidence says. Similar to how the Romans brought political state structures to much of Europe by conquests in places where there had not been states before. Pretending that there were states before is just wishful thinking and pseudohistory, which is at the core of every anti-Normanist argument.
:::::::::Incidentally, I've been working on [[Kyi, Shchek and Khoryv]] a bit, as well as [[Kyi dynasty]]. As Wikipedians, we need to be very careful in trying to separate fact from fiction. We're not here to try and confirm what we already believe; we're here to summarise what reliable sources have concluded, even if that is not what we expected or wanted them to conclude. [[User:Nederlandse Leeuw|NLeeuw]] ([[User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw#top|talk]]) 21:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
'''No.''' All I'm reading so far is some original research based on a selective, personal reading of the ''Primary Chronicle'' (PVL), an often highly unreliable, late, biased, and self-contradicting [[WP:PRIMARY]] source. Essentially, 46.200.75.110 seems to be making an [[anti-Normanism]] argument, claiming that the [[Polans (eastern)]] (Polanians, Polyane, Polyanians etc.) were always called {{xt|Rus'}}, always called themselves {{xt|Rus'}}, and that the Swedish Varangians who conquered Kyiv around 880 were not {{xt|Rus'}}. This hypothesis has already been conclusively disproven and refuted by scholars decades ago, and we do not have to take it seriously. Anthropology of early Kyivan Rus' is extremely complicated and controversial, with the PVL frequently contradicting itself over what the word {{xt|Rus'}} even means and to whom it should be applied. A drive-by comment on a talk page saying we should ignore the scholarly consensus because some person on the Internet has a different selective personal reading of the PVL is nothing to take seriously.
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