Talk:Skanderbeg

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

If Albania was founded and established as a country in 1912 how is possible that he was Albanian in that time? Albania didn't exist? 2601:151:C301:3340:3147:880:F58E:19CF (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. see Albanian principalities Cannolis (talk) 22:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Albania had their first confirmed (there are earlier ones but simply not confirmed) during the 12th century, even if they didn’t have a state it doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. By this logic Kurds don’t exist. 92.22.219.166 (talk) 01:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The islamic view

The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? Skylax30 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point being? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194

• Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
• The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
• Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.

WP:FRINGE on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. Botushali (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was 'per natura Serviano" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):

"Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano" [1]. Have a nice day.

Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. Botushali (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Per natura Serviano, means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write born Serbian he would had used nato Serviano instead; please refer to [2]. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. [3]. Of course it's free.

Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. Botushali (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf’s work from 1867 is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. Botushali (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called Chroniques gréco-romaines, which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the Breve Memoria, or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ShockedSkater (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. Botushali (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@ShockedSkater: Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. Breve memoria is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.

Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.

Do you have any sources that support the: "The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle" statement ShockedSkater (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--Skylax30 (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of Andrea Angeli is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see [4] on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & per natura rozo - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, rough by nature...). [5] If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ShockedSkater (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?

Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father owned only 2 villages in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ShockedSkater (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:FRINGE. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. Botushali (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

What source are you talking about? ShockedSkater (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. Botushali (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

@ShockedSkater: Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ShockedSkater (talk) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Birthdate --> 6 May 1405

Source --> http://www.panorama.com.al/turqia-verteton-origjinen-shqiptare-te-skenderbeut-dokumentari-turk-si-i-mundi-dy-sulltanet-e-shek-xv-studiuesi-u-quajt-iskender-bey-si-pasardhes-i-aleksandrit-te-madh/ 2001:4BB8:100:382D:0:0:4DD8:875C (talk) 15:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no document stating he was born in that day, only that St. George is celebrated, and because he is called George, he must have been born on 6 May. So in my opinion, you should not edit it that way. ShockedSkater (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 22:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Religion

Religion aged 0-20 is unmarked can someone add orthodox there 109.240.2.246 (talk) 09:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)