Talk:Volunteer (Ireland)

Merger of Volunteer (Irish republican) and Volunteer (Ulster loyalist) to here

I propose that the following two articles Volunteer (Irish republican) and Volunteer (Ulster loyalist) both be merged into one article at this namespace. There is not much difference in content and scope between either article with the biggest section in both articles "History of the term volunteer in Ireland" being almost carbon-copies of each other. There is really no need for two articles on essentially the same topic with the only definable division being the side that uses the exact same term for virtually the exact same purpose. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

RfC for above proposal

Seeking more input for the above proposed merger of the Volunteer (Irish republican) and Volunteer (Ulster loyalist) articles into this namespace (Volunteer (Ireland)). The Ireland WikiProject and the two relevant volunteer articles were notified when I started the discussion and no input has arrived from them at all. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Support/Oppose

• Oppose. It's true that the two articles are very similar, but that's because the loyalist article was deliberately created as a mirror of the republican one, and expanded in tandem with it. To merge loyalist and republican articles into a single article would be counter-intuitive. There is no "Irish paramilitaries" article or "List of Irish paramilitary organisations", so a single article for members of same does not in fact make sense. I suggest, first, that both articles be ruthlessly edited down by removing the irrelevant "History" sections and, in the case of the republican one, that silly section that says "the role of a volunteer is to turn up and to obey orders". Second, that the edited-down loyalist article be merged into Ulster loyalism#Paramilitary and vigilante groups. I may be wrong, but I don't think the word "volunteer" occurs as frequently in articles on loyalist personalities and organisations as it does in republican ones, and I think that there would be few incoming links if it were not in a number of templates. Merging the republican one would be more problematical, because there isn't an obvious place in Irish republicanism to merge it to. But then again, there is no reason why the two articles have to be treated the same way, and the republican article is the older one, and has more content that is relevant and more incoming links. Finally, "Volunteer (Ireland)" would be a bad title for an article, because it implies that membership of a paramilitary organisation is the primary meaning of "volunteer" in Ireland, which is obviously not the case. Scolaire (talk) 12:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Both claimed a political descent from the Irish Volunteers (18th century), it is true, but have had such different aims and methods since 1913 that it's best to have separate articles.PatrickGuinness (talk) 14:06, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Also the title is much too close to the loyalist American Volunteers of Ireland.PatrickGuinness (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The 2 articles are similar and can be merged into 1 article.CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:14, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support merge: There is absolutely no encyclopedic reason why these two article should not be merged. The two articles are enough alike. including the names, that one article can, and should, present any differences in sections. This would make one article that could likely achieve a high class rating. Some people pronounce potato one way, some people another, but it is still the same subject. The main reason for WP:NPOV is to present both sides without WP:Bias. Think about it: Should we have one article Potato (somewhere) and another Potato (somewhere else). What if the British or Irish use a slightly different pronunciation should we have 4 or more of the same articles with parenthetical disambiguation? Collaboration should not be hard and "if" this can not be achieved, because of political reasoning, then invoke sanctions like discuss before edit, "1RR", or other needed over-sight to ensure collaboration. People feel strongly about a subject of interest to them and if they can not separate political or religious beliefs, to present material "fairly" in this encyclopedia, they should recuse themselves or there is certainly a need for over-sight to help them. Because Ireland and Northern Ireland may be in a continual "battle" does not mean Wikipedia "must" try to advance this. From an encyclopedic point of view we should not care which side is right or wrong but present both sides in proportion. If I were to be the closer I would interpret oppose !votes that include "Both claimed a political descent from the Irish Volunteers (18th century), it is true..." and "It's true that the two articles are very similar, but that's because the loyalist article was deliberately created as a mirror of the republican one" as actual support and not oppose. We agree but have to disagree on grounds that..., and words like "loyalist article" or "republican" concerning the same "Irish potato" should be a big "giant" red flag. Sorry-- I had to add that as ironic. Otr500 (talk) 12:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
  • There is a problem, that I suppose is just something over-looked. There are two articles proposed to be merged into one. This means there should be an appropriate template showing this. Otr500 (talk) 12:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
    • Volunteer (Ireland) is a redirect. There is no point in templating it. The other two articles are templated. Scolaire (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose merge and support merge into the pages of the respective organizations. I'm not sure we need a page for just the title "volunteer," separate from the pages about the volunteer organizations themselves. It would be like having a World War I Soldier page that then had different sections for soldiers in the French Army, German Army, etc. A single page that covers both sides seems strange and artificial. Chris vLS (talk) 20:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I need to do some more reading on this but one thing is certain. If there is a merge and it is into one page then Volunteer(Ireland) should not be the title - That sounds like an Irish definition of volunteering as opposed to the Rank in militaristic organisations of Volunteer. Perhaps Volunteer (Irish Rank) would make more sense? I will give an opinion on merge or not after I've read the various documents but this took a while for me to understand - that this was the discussion at all. ☕ Antiqueight ^haver 00:35, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• OpposeI'm editing my initial comment - I think there should not be a page for Volunteer (Ireland) since it makes it seem like the work I do for oxfam in Ireland is somehow different from any other country and that isn't what the topic is about at all. I confirm that I believe there could be an article for the rank of volunteer in Ireland and that shouldn't be split by loyalist or republican any more than there would be separate articles for different ideologies. ☕ Antiqueight ^haver 12:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Scolaire and other oppose !votes Mo ainm~Talk 13:07, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments

Just to note I will respond to Scolaire's reasonings after hopefully some more input. Though to fire a quick response to PatrickGuinness's reasoning: Having different aims and methods is not a credible reason for having two articles. The use of the rank is not subject to whatever organisations aims or methods. Also whilst that is a good point on article name, it can easily be clarified with a "For the" at the top of the article, or a better name for a merged article. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:27, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Having different aims and methods is not a credible reason for having two articles. On that basis, why not put all Irish political parties on one page? Or all Irish counties? It will look convoluted and stupid. By all means have one list page, listing them all.PatrickGuinness (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Maybe because they are all large and distinct enough to merit their own articles, and have a lot of information? Whereas two articles on the exact same "rank" that applies to two different shades of Irish paramilitary groups which have very little unique or difference in origin and usage do not. In fact there is already one article about the Counties of Ireland along with all the individual ones as well as List of political parties in Northern Ireland. Moot points that have no bearing on this discussion. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:29, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Otr500: I very deeply resent the accusation that my !vote is politically motivated, part of a battleground mentality or a prelude to edit-warring. Read it again. It is entirely concerned with making the article or articles encyclopaedic. "Loyalist article" was only shorthand for "Volunteer (Ulster loyalist) article". I ask you to strike through all your allegations of poor faith. Scolaire (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Let's just focus on the points being raised and not the possible reasons behind them. Just to note I disagree with Scolaire's points and will post a counter to them soon enough. I'm happy to let more input come in as the more the better. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:29, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@ Scolaire: Your comments makes my mind scream "what the hell are you referring to? I will support you taking this to ANI, as you are so off base it is astounding, and you are seriously mistaken. I am far more offended, than you might think you are, that you are even trying to place yourself as the object of my comments, using what seems to me to be possible Wikilawyering, and without a doubt attacking me by stating I directed "allegations of poor faith" towards you.

Admins can read exactly what I wrote ---and I used quotes. I was NOT referring to anyone in particular, certainly not you, concerning article content. I have yet to look at the edit histories and have no idea who has contributed to either article. My statements are concerning merging in general, common sense reasons why they should be merged, and not letting differing politics (or religion) be a reason to affect Wikipedia article content, thus the word "Collaboration".

I am utterly at a lost to even try to surmise what of my comments you even remotely deem were derogatorily "directed at you specifically", or what part you could misconstrue to make it "seem" I accused you of "...politically motivated, part of a battleground mentality or a prelude to edit-warring.". The quotes? The reasoning that I believe both quotes are proof the articles should be merged? That is the only part of my comments above that was directed towards you, and the other "oppose" !vote. You "might" want to read your comments again in case you forgot what you typed. Both articles are "very similar" ("It's true"), "descent from the Irish Volunteers (18th century), it is true...", and this supports a merge to me.

Your own words, I assume since you signed them, "To merge loyalist and republican articles into a single article would be counter-intuitive.", to whom? Certainly not the readers and exactly how could this be against common-sense?

The fact is that merging two articles, that has the supposed same roots, same definition, same spelling, differentiated only be editor disambiguation, and used by two different factions, means the two articles really should be merged. I am not trying to change your mind, as I have seen this rarely happens, but directed reasoning to others.

If you are still resentful about some mistakenly (thus supposed and actually unknown) "allegations of poor faith" I really would not wait but take this to ANI immediately as I might do it myself. "IF" however, you reread what I wrote, maybe a couple of times, and realize you have clearly made a serious mistake, taking offense at something not directed at you at all, I will understand that mistakes can happen.

IF the word "volunteer" does appear more in reliable sources (I am not really concerned about "other articles and any possible bias there) concerning "republican" use then due weight :dictates this be reflected in the article. Otr500 (talk) 05:00, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

"If [collaboration] can not be achieved, because of political reasoning, then invoke sanctions"; "if they can not separate political or religious beliefs, to present material fairly in this encyclopedia, they should recuse themselves or there is certainly a need for over-sight"; "because Ireland and Northern Ireland may be in a continual battle does not mean Wikipedia must try to advance this." Only two people had !voted "oppose" when you wrote that, so it's not hard to figure out who it was aimed at. And "words like 'loyalist article' should be a big giant red flag": I was the only person to use that phrase. If you're now saying that your rant wasn't directed at us, but at hypothetical editors of the two articles who might edit-war over the term "volunteer" at some unspecified time in the future, then you should still strike all that, because it's not remotely relevant to a merge request. Oh, and you might think about anger management classes. Scolaire (talk) 10:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh give it a rest you two and ignore each other unless it's constructive. Though Otr500 has made a couple of good points, which I will reiterate in my response to you Scolaire. I would do it now but I'd rather do it from my laptop than from my tab. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, there are and were all sorts of volunteers, social, political and military. If e.g. we mention Myles O'Reilly's men as volunteers (in 1859-60), then everyone from Ireland who volunteered for any army or other body anywhere ever should be included. Better suited to a list!PatrickGuinness (talk) 21:54, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

We are on about a rank used in a military sense such as by the IRA and UVF, not a general term used to describe someone who enlisted in an armed body. In any case the background section in both articles deals with historical usage of the term in Ireland in a general sense. Also why create more redundancy with a short pointless list article when this namespace already redirects to one? Mabuska ^(talk) 11:54, 25 November 2016 (UTC)