Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritz Sommer

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:39, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fritz Sommer

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Does not appear to meet WP:NSPORT or WP:GNG and lacks WP:SIGCOV. Of the three references included, all of them are sports database entries. Was draftified in hopes of improvment, but was returned to mainspace without improvement. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Made 69 appearances for a first division team. This is one of 3 articles OP has tried to delete of mine today so, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not Whac-A-Mole. Use Common Sense and Wikipedia:The rules are principles. Doesn't seem to answer Wikipedia:The one question. KatoKungLee (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article has serious issues. WP:SPORTBASIC says Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources.. All 3 sources provided are database sources. Do you have anything more appropriate? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Germany. Shellwood (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 20:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per KatoKungLee. Definitely has offline sources having had extensive career in 1950s-50s including top flight professional football in Germany. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:GNG. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The German wikipedia has a much more detailed article on him and has several offline sources:

Lorenz Knieriem, Hardy Grüne: Enzyklopädie des deutschen Ligafußballs. Band 8: Spielerlexikon 1890–1963. Agon-Sportverlag, Kassel 2006, ISBN 3-89784-148-7.

Werner Sklrentny (Hrsg.): Als Morlock noch den Mondschein traf. Die Geschichte der Oberliga Süd 1945–1963. Klartext-Verlag, Essen 1993, ISBN 3-88474-055-5.

Hardy Grüne, Claus Melchior: Legenden in Weiß und Blau. 100 Jahre Fußballgeschichte eines Münchner Traditionsvereins. Verlag Die Werkstatt, Göttingen 1999, ISBN 3-89533-256-9.

BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was given access to the third book by a user and it says the following: "Fritz Sommer: Fritz Sommer was in the Oberliga Süd from the very beginning. Until the end of his career after the 1957/58 season, he played 231 games in this division, by far more than any other Lions players of that era. He started as an outfielder, but later moved to the center half position. A leg fracture in his first B-team international against Spain in 1953 ended a possible international career before it had actually begun." BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If that's all a book dedicated entirely to the history of 1860 Munich can say about him... JoelleJay (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The de.wiki article has a lot of text covering his team's performance but very little content actually on Sommer, and what's there is just "Sommer played in this game" and "Sommer was transferred to the B team", leading me to believe those offline sources contain nothing beyond what we would see in databases (fixtures, positions). JoelleJay (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per German wikipedia, mentioned in three books, multiple mentions in offline sources, [1], he was part of the squad that play in European football and was an important figure for the club during the period he played. @GiantSnowman: There is notability here, you shouldn't trust this nomination or the other delete votes. Not to mention newspaper searches have not been done. Govvy (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Does not appear to meet WP:NSPORT or WP:GNG. All of the references included are just to sports databases, which are not enough to establish notability despite the votes that are based on participation alone. Not opposed to draftify, but I worry that it may be moved back without improvements. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like using this argument, but I feel we should just use COMMONSENSE here. This player appeared in 231 games for a top-level team, in the offline era (40s, 50s), for a foreign country, nobody has done any newspaper searches (which is where the most in-depth coverage would be), and there's several offline books that discuss him (listed above – also, in the one I've been given access to, his biography is listed in the section for the most important figures in the team's history). Weak Keep. struck at the moment BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In an amateur, regional league... Giant Snowman 18:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: Wait, so the league he played in was not the top division of German soccer? BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Bundesliga (the German top league) was not founded until 1963. Before that it was regional leagues. See Bundesliga#Origins. Giant Snowman 18:50, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So it was the top league for only a section of Germany? BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BeanieFan11: Germany had a system where each state had its own top league - Gauliga. The only times the teams met were in a cup(List of German football champions). Germany then split up of course into East and West Germany, and the teams from East and West never met on top of one of them having 4 seperate top flight divisions (and some lower divisions). I'm not sure of all the political issues involved, though there may have been something with the players receiving less or reduced pay due to government involvement. These were all top level teams and divisions. Then later when Germany reunified, the teams got all placed in various Bundesliga levels. It's odd and quite confusing.KatoKungLee (talk) 20:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage. Alvaldi (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:SPORTBASIC#5 and WP:GNG. These are the only relevant guidelines here. Whether he has played 1000 games or just 1 game is not relevant because notability is no longer based on participation, and that's a good thing. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or Draftify : I checked the german page of the footballer and found few books which can be used as reference for his notability. I have added thos in the page as well. If that doesnt satisfy notability I suggest to draftify this article Christopheronthemove (talk) 04:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Christopheronthemove, do you have access to these books? Can you tell us what the SIGCOV in them is? JoelleJay (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: BLP with no SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth. Fail GNG, NSPORT, NSPORTS2022. Nothing in the article is SIGCOV, BEFORE showed stats, database entries, listings. As BeanieFan11 mentioned above the book ref does not mention the subject. Per JoelleJay sources on de wikipedia mentioned above are not SIGCOV. BLPs need completely clear and reliable sourcing: WP:SPORTBASIC Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources.. // Timothy :: talk 12:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.