Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia/Evidence

Is it possible to talk here? --SMP - talk (en) - talk (ca) 10:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Newyorkbrad 11:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Catalonia OR Catalonia and Valencian Community?

Some users are providing evidences about the two requested for arbitration articles Physchim62 asked for (Catalonia and Valencian Community), but I only wrote I never edited on Catalonia (or its talk page) because the title of this page says specifically Catalonia only.

Actually, I was waiting for an ArbCom about Valencian Community to come in order to provide my own evidences regarding the article I was collaborating.

So may I ask what is discussed here? Catalonia alone? Or Catalonia AND Valencian Community?

Depending of the answer I'll re-write my assertion or not, of course. But I guess it's better both ArbComs to remain separated since some users are not involved in both articles and the debate is not so heated and angry. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 18:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Good question, I should have made this clear earlier. This request for arbitration is about Catalonia, Valencian Community, and any related articles where there has been similar edit warring, incivility on talk pages, and other violations of policy. But [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia, Valencian Community, and other related articles]] was too long, so I decided to just name the case Catalonia for ease of linking to it. Picaroon (Talk) 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I requested that the two articles be considered because I think that the pattern and causes of the disruption are similar, even if not all editors involved are active on both articles. If ArbCom is going to remind editors of some basic principles of Wikipedia, I think it should be for both articles (although the committee may decide differently in the end, that's their prerogative!) Physchim62 (talk) 13:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Until when?

This days I don't have so much time to write my evidences. Until which day can we contribute here? I suppose first week of August I will have again time...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 13:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Translations and sources

As the habitual contributors on Talk:Valencian Community all speak (or at least understand) Catalan-Valencian, I didn't bother to translate these citations at the time. For the benefit of those who are less proficient in Valencian, I provide the English translations here.

The citation from Pompeu Fabra: [1]

"We, Catalans, wish for nothing more than that you undertake a purification of your language, and we are in no way concerned that you tie yourselves to our Catalan; you should work to decastilianise Valencian, and to stand it up straight and to enrich it by tying it to the Valencian of your great medieval writers."

The citation from Antoni Casals: [2] (as best as I can do: it dates from 1395 and my medieval Valencian isn't wonderful!)

"[...] taken from the Latin into our vulgar maternal Valencian as well as I could seeing that others have taken it into the Catalan language but in a way that seems pretty ugly and almost meaningless [...]"

The two citations from the Dictamen of the AVL: [3]

From paragraph 1 [of the Dictamen]:

"Within this set of dialects, Valencian has the same hierarchy and dignity as any other local form of the language system, and shows certain of its own characteristics which the AVL will preserve and develop..."

From paragraph 6 [of the Dictamen]:

"It is a fact that in Spain there are two equally legitimate names to designate this language, that of Valencian [...] and that of Catalan [...] accepted by Spanish Law and jurisprudence. The existence of these two names can create confusion as to the coherence of the language in certain contexts, especially outside the shared linguistic area. For this reason, the AVL considers it necessary that the involved autonomous governments, in collaboration with the Spanish govenment, adopt the pertinent measures (approval of of sincretic or similar formulae, for example) in order that [...] the dual nomenclature of our language is harmonized with its projection as a cohesive and unfragmented entity. These formulae will have to be introduced in academic circles as well as in other types of situation. In this way, the legitimate presence of the term "Valencian" will be able to be guaranteed outside of our Community, and the linguistic reality can be reconciled with the realities of the Law and of Valencian society."

Of course, the role of the arbitration is not to determine an illusary "Truth"—we have WikiTruth for that ;)—but I hope that arbitrators will consider the parties' attitudes to verifiable sources. The Dictamen of the AVL has been cited by both myself and Dúnadan, so it may be considered that we agree that it is valid and verifiable. The citations from Fabra and Casals may be found in Annex 3 to the Dictamen, although I verified the citation from Fabra against a copy in the Capellades Municipal Library.

The Dictamen, a formal position statement issued on 9 February 2005 by the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, the body legally responsible for linguistic matters in the Valencian Community, also offers a source for the fact that the nature of the Valencian language is socially contentious "in this territory".

From the third paragraph of the preamble:

"Com és sabut, un sector de la societat valenciana considera que l’idioma propi dels valencians coincidix amb la llengua que es parla en altres territoris de l’antiga Corona d’Aragó, mentres que un altre sector considera que és una llengua diferent."

"As is known, a sector of Valencian society considers that the language of the Valencians coincides with the language which is spoken in other territories of the former Crown of Aragon, whereas another sector considers that it [Valencian] is a different language."

From the closing paragraph of the Dictamen: (emphasis in original)

"Així mateix, l’AVL fa una crida a tots els parlants del nostre idioma perquè, amb la màxima generositat i flexibilitat, cooperen en la solució del denominat conflicte lingüístic valencià amb sentit comú i visió de futur."

"And so, the AVL calls on all speakers of our language to cooperate, and with the greatest generosity and flexibility, in the solution of the so-called Valencian linguistic conflict with common sense and a vision of the future."

Physchim62 (talk) 13:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)