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I don't think there's a huge amount of women in the bear community but there sure is a decent trans presence. I'm a bit overloaded at the moment but it would be nice to find ways to acknowledge this at some point. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 01:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
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Women in the bear community? Bears are for male role models -- ones that are not the traditional male twink scope. There is this whole lesbian thing for women - why look to a male grouping? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.96.242.167|65.96.242.167]] ([[User talk:65.96.242.167|talk]]) 23:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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Some women, regardless of their own sexuality, just like hanging around bears. Why not?

== talk page clean-up ==
{{Resolved|1= -- [[User:Allstarecho|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000000"><b>ALLSTAR</b></span>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000000"><small><b>echo</b></small></span>]] 18:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)}}
This talk page needs some house-cleaning. Someone please be bold and start an archive and move old talk point to it. Thank you! [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 01:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

==WP:NOR==
This article contains vast tracts of Original research. The majority of it is unreferenced and most likely, unreferenceable. I suggest serious cleanup. [[User:Kyaa the Catlord|Kyaa the Catlord]] ([[User talk:Kyaa the Catlord|talk]]) 10:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:Well, personally I see this organic article as at a good point for a bit of an overhaul. The trivia and pop culture sections are interesting but a bit useless as is and, to me, the entire article should be re-structured and use those examples of how bear cultures have become more mainstream. It might also make sense to make a conscious decision to either be inclusive to all bear communities (which I think would be difficult) or rename and re-aim the lede to state there is a growing emergence of bear cultures within the LGBT movements which is mostly gay men. Rename suggestion --> Bear cultures (gay), or something similar unless the article is gong to try to accurately discuss most of the bear communities around the world which I don't recommend. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 20:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
::I agree with you Benji. This article needs a good overhauling and sources. Your renaming suggestion is good as long as we don't come into any merge arguments once renamed with any other articles such as [[Chubby chaser]], [[Big Beautiful Woman|BBW]] etc. -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 21:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Well BBW is about women so I don't see an issue there whereas Chubby Chaser predates bear and should be expanded not merged so I'll back up any discussion that baits a merge trap. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 22:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
::I'm supportive of your efforts to cleanup and rewrite this article. (Just for the record) [[User:Kyaa the Catlord|Kyaa the Catlord]] ([[User talk:Kyaa the Catlord|talk]]) 09:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

===Rename (thus focusing a bit more) ===
Per above "It might also make sense to make a conscious decision to either be inclusive to all bear communities (which I think would be difficult) or rename and re-aim the lede to state there is a growing emergence of bear cultures within the LGBT movements which is mostly gay men. Rename suggestion --> Bear cultures (gay), or something similar unless the article is going to try to accurately discuss most of the bear communities around the world which I don't recommend."
Does '''''Bear culture (gay)''''' make sense for this article? If not any suggestions? Also I should clarify I meant that it's mostly gay men in the bear cultures not in the LGBT movements. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 22:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:Personally, I would think '''''Bear (gay)''''' would be correct. The word expresses not just a distinct community and culture, but a distinct identity as well. I would rather see the term itself be the subject of the article rather than some aspect of it. And '''THANK YOU''' for your work, Benjiboi; you have done a bang-up job on GLBT articles and your efforts are much appreciated. [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 23:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:Much appreciated TechBear! It's stressed me out a lot so I only do a little each time. Per the title then I wonder if '''''Bear (gay slang)''''' then is most appropriate to keep in line with similar articles of gay slang? [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 00:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

:: I would push against the '''''(gay slang)''''' label. While the word "bear" is used as slang to mean someone who is older/hairier/fatter than the current archetype of gay male beauty, it also represents a distinct sub-set in a way that "twink" and similar slang words do not. As I said above, "bear" is an identity, a community and a sub-culture. While a comparison can be made between the [[circuit party]] circuit and the bear event circuit, I have yet to see anything along the lines of an International Twink Rendezvous. ;-b [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 00:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

:::I don't think it should be '''''Bear (gay)''''' or '''''Bear (gay slang)'''''. If you just do the first, you're leaving out others within the '''community''' such as chasers, otters, etc. which will in turn call for their own articles and face deletion, etc. And as a bear, I'm offended by ''gay slang''. Being a bear or loving bears is an identity, not a nickname or latest cool gay slang like [[Santorum (sexual neologism)|santorum]] :P Seriously, I really like '''''Bear culture (gay)''''' - if it just really, absolutely has to have a name change because I don't see anything wrong with its current name except maybe it should be '''''Bear community (gay)''''' instead of just '''''Bear community'''''. -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 00:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

::::Disagree. The modifier ''gay'' is to address that the articles focus is on bear culture within LGBT communities as I'm certain there are other ''bear'' interests out there that are not LGBT. ''[[Slang]]'' simply means that a word is not meant literally and "usage of slang expressions can spread outside their original arenas to become commonly used, such as "cool" and "jive". Slang can be argot and pejorative which the article can delve into as appropriate. To address the other (totally valid) concerns I say focus on the end game; little old lady hears the word and turns to wikipedia to get an answer what is all the fuss about. I think this article should lede with bear as gay slang with major sections on history of term (an outgrowth in opposition to twink and gym queen cultures intertwined with the AIDS pandemic condition of wasting), bear culture (with further subsections including major events, terminology); modifiers (Black bear, Polar bear, Muscle bear, Panda bear, etc) ; and a subsection just for otters with the potential that it could grow into it's own article (but that's a way off I imagine). I'll also state that I'm a bit of an inclusionist so am slow to delete good content but I see the whole pop culture and "controversy" sections as problematic so reworking the structure might provide some framework in which that content would make sense to the average reader. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 02:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

::::: You make good points. While I don't much care for the slang label, you have the experience so I will defer. Would it be worth setting up a sandbox for the rewrite, or will the existing article be changed in-place? [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 02:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Well, unless I'm wrong it is slang otherwise it may sound like we are referring to gay bears which is already covered in the homosexuality of animals article. I'm in no rush here so let's make sure '''''Bear (gay slang)''''' is the way to go. My hunch is that it would be the "mother" article with any potential other articles (like community, otter, etc) birthing out of it as it grows too large. If we go with something else (even "otter") the first part of the article is explaining what a bear is anyway. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 08:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I wasn't necessarily referring to "otter vs bear" but rather how defining this article about a single subject, as '''''Bear (gay slang)''''' does, then you'd have to end up creating seperate articles for chasers, otters, ursophile, etc. By leaving '''community''' in the name, you're including just that, the community of which revolves around bear culture. I still prefer '''''Bear community (gay)''''' but you know I have the deepest admiration and respect for you Benji so whatever you feel is necessary, I'll support. -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 15:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Indent reset. Mucho appreciated and back atchya! I see no problem with including the communities content as well as otter et al with a move to '''''Bear (gay slang)''''' and would actually expect to see that in the article. This is who uses this term applies to and why and how and here is the communities, events and naming conventions that are a part of this minority within a minority community. We're opening an accurate window to this world for those looking and we should work it out to be an informative good read. There's piles of great stuff out there I know it's possible. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 12:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
:I got a '''pile of great stiff''' for you alright... :P haha -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 16:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

:Psst, Benji! Your [[Freudian slip]] is showing. "Piles of great stiff" indeed. ;-b Either that or you need to lay off on the eggnog. [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 23:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


== evolution of the identity/term ==
::Lol! I'm such a bad speller. Corrected a few of my typos. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


I don't have sources, therefore I don't want to make an edit, however, in my experience, while hirstuteness is still very much associated with being a bear, it no longer seems to be a disqualifier if someone who self identifies as a bear (or with the bear community) is not very hairy. It seems to have more to do with overall body size/fat than hair these days. Even the reference to Homer Simpson being a bear, for example. Homer is not hairy, he is only large. "Panda bears" are to Asian bears, yet Asians are often not hairy at all.
outdent. OK, now that all have fermented on my creative spelling! can we move forward with a rename to '''''Bear (gay slang)''''' without prejudice to all the content (i.e. we find ways to keep things presently in the article even though we're restructuring)? [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 17:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
:'''woof!''' and mumble something about losing sense of ''community''. -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 17:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


I think it has more to do with an overall "scruffiness" ...meaning that other masculine traits, in addition to a large body size, may make up for a lack of body hair. Often having a full beard seems to make up for a lack of body hair to many and seems to be more important as a signifier of being a part of the bear community.
:Feel free, and I will do what I can to help. Thanks yet again for your work, Benji! [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 18:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


A similar thing applies to otters. Not all otters are extremely hairy. If anything, an otter is somewhat of a replacement term for "chaser" which some find derisive or othering. If you are a smaller guy who identifies with the whole set of aesthetics surrounding bear culture and are attracted to larger men and associate within those social circles, you will be considered an otter regardless of body hair. Again, it has more to do with scruffiness and beards and identity.
==Gummi bears==
Want to make a note before I forget, Gummi bears are into latex, rubber fetishes; there was a London club by that name was somehow involved in the [[Operation Spanner]] case and i believe there is some German pop song about this as well. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:Update the pop song might have simply been adopted as the song ''[[I Am Your Gummy Bear]]'' actually has dance versions as well as Spanish and French versions all put out by Gummibar on [http://www.gummybearinternational.com/ecard/ Gummibear International]. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 10:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:More for those who care or are looking, {{cquote|A 30 second video clip for this little green troubadour's song ''I'm A Gummy Bear'' has met an enthusiastic response around the globe with more than 14 million plays on YouTube and MySpace video alone. This multi-lingual hit - available in English, French, Spanish, German and the original Hungarian - has won the hearts of fun-loving audiences everywhere. It has gone on to hit the best seller lists in every country in which it was released.}}
:You've been warned! [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 10:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


I think something about body hair not being a requirement should be added in regards to the evolution of the identity.
=="original research"?==
In what sense in the analysis of a concept "original research"? I wrote that stuff. I didn't research it at all. The fact is when you call a man a bear you do it for a reason. It's like a literary allusion. The only way to understand what it means is to understand what it achieves.


Additionally it's important not to dilute the concept such that we are pretending women can be bears, or that transexuals are a significant part of bear culture. if you start doing this, the article reads like a reflection of the author's preoccupations and politics and misleads people. (theobald2526 10/12/07) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Theobald2526|Theobald2526]] ([[User talk:Theobald2526|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theobald2526|contribs]]) 02:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
The bear "community" seems to include rugged, less fashion-conscious, scruffy guys of all sizes who don't identify with and eschew traditional ideas of gay attractiveness. The part about muscle bear subculture seems to address those bears who do embrace many of the traits of mainstream culture, but most self identifying bears these days are pretty average looking guys who are into other average guys. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:98B:380:2140:2811:81B1:59CD:3059|2601:98B:380:2140:2811:81B1:59CD:3059]] ([[User talk:2601:98B:380:2140:2811:81B1:59CD:3059#top|talk]]) 20:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I think as we do some article overhauling you'll find the history of bears in the LGBT community includes Mama Bears who were mostly lesbian women but I think that usage has lessened recently. Also Transgender men make not be a significant portion of the overall community but it's also false to state that bears are only gay and bisexual. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 21:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
::Actually, I've never heard lesbian bears called Mama Bears but have heard "Les[[Bruin]]". -- [[User:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#fff;background:#DC143C;border:1px solid #000">ALLSTAR</strong>]][[User talk:Allstarecho|<strong style="color:#FFF;background:#0F4D92;border:1px solid #000"><small>echo</small></strong>]] 05:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
:::There was a Mama's Bear cafe, still might be, in Northern California, Oakland I think. I'm pretty sure is was a defacto lesbian hangout and meeting place for small organizations but I wasn't going to spend research time on that aspect just yet. [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 01:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


== Etymology discussed ==
== Gender ==


While Bears have included cisgender men since the beginning of the subculture, Bear-identified cisgender women and transgender men have been recognized as part of Bear culture since the late 2000s (see "A woman in the bear community" by Iz Connell and the interview "Lesbears and Transbears: Dykes and FTMs as Bears" in the 2009 revised Bears on Bears: Interviews & Discussions book).
* [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=659379c3-7b3f-4534-b094-7eddfb982960&k=34639&p=2 ''Where the Bears don't fear to tread: Tracking the pawprints of a gay subculture''] by Robert Fulford, National Post (June 19, 2007). [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 03:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


I bring this up because while I'm not sure how relevant including a detail like this would be on the page (as again, most Bears are cis men), it may help general readers understand why "Ursula" is included on the list. I'm prematurely adding this to the page, but if it seems too much like a corollary, it'll at least be in the page's discussion. ([[User:Bluesprucedude]])([[User talk:Bluesprucedude|talk]]) 16:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
== Terminology: Wolf ==
[[Image:Ours brun parcanimalierpyrenees 1.jpg|111px|thumb|right|For [[Christ]]'s Sake, don't tell your parents you're a [[Bear (gay slang)|bear]]! It will only confuse them. - [[John Waters (filmmaker)|John Waters]].]]
In the Terminology section of this article, the term "Wolf" is mentioned (and capitalized) in the definition of the term "Otter." A comparison is made between the two, noting the primary difference. However, the term "Wolf" itself is not defined. Both the comparison and the capitalizing of "Wolf" renders it a term that needs its own definition. the terminology list needs to be expanded to include "Wolf." [[User:Tigerdg|tigerdg]] ([[User talk:Tigerdg|talk]]) 04:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


== Newly emerging internet in the mid-eighties? ==
== Reference cleanup ==


I cleaned up an edit made by an anonymous IP, and noticed that the list of references is poorly done. I will try to get to it this evening, but if anyone else wants to take it on, go for it. [[User:TechBear|TechBear]] ([[User talk:TechBear|talk]]) 19:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that part is correct. - [[User:Tournesol|Tournesol]] ([[User talk:Tournesol|talk]]) 09:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)


== Heterosexual identification ==
Hi <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/201.134.119.35|201.134.119.35]] ([[User talk:201.134.119.35|talk]]) 20:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


I wonder why isn't there any mention of Bear not being only a homosexual identifier.
== Excessive neutral point-of-view ==
It is very much used in the heterosexual scene too.
In fact we have quotes from people behind XLbear that say it is not about being gay or straight but a state of mind.


https://www.straight.com/life/1029806/savage-love-can-straight-male-call-themselves-bear [[User:Kane 1371|Kane 1371]] ([[User talk:Kane 1371|talk]]) 10:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
I made some alterations in the description, as it had so many "some" and "may" and "although" that it was rendered unreadable. I know that this is impolite to do, but I haven't altered any information, except about the chasers. But, as that info is already on the terminology, and has its own [[Chaser_(gay_slang) | article]], I don't think it will matter. Hope I haven't upset anyone. [[User:Tercer|Tercer]] ([[User talk:Tercer|talk]]) 04:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:21, 26 September 2024

Former featured article candidateBear (gay culture) is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 31, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted

evolution of the identity/term

[edit]

I don't have sources, therefore I don't want to make an edit, however, in my experience, while hirstuteness is still very much associated with being a bear, it no longer seems to be a disqualifier if someone who self identifies as a bear (or with the bear community) is not very hairy. It seems to have more to do with overall body size/fat than hair these days. Even the reference to Homer Simpson being a bear, for example. Homer is not hairy, he is only large. "Panda bears" are to Asian bears, yet Asians are often not hairy at all.

I think it has more to do with an overall "scruffiness" ...meaning that other masculine traits, in addition to a large body size, may make up for a lack of body hair. Often having a full beard seems to make up for a lack of body hair to many and seems to be more important as a signifier of being a part of the bear community.

A similar thing applies to otters. Not all otters are extremely hairy. If anything, an otter is somewhat of a replacement term for "chaser" which some find derisive or othering. If you are a smaller guy who identifies with the whole set of aesthetics surrounding bear culture and are attracted to larger men and associate within those social circles, you will be considered an otter regardless of body hair. Again, it has more to do with scruffiness and beards and identity.

I think something about body hair not being a requirement should be added in regards to the evolution of the identity.

The bear "community" seems to include rugged, less fashion-conscious, scruffy guys of all sizes who don't identify with and eschew traditional ideas of gay attractiveness. The part about muscle bear subculture seems to address those bears who do embrace many of the traits of mainstream culture, but most self identifying bears these days are pretty average looking guys who are into other average guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:98B:380:2140:2811:81B1:59CD:3059 (talk) 20:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gender

[edit]

While Bears have included cisgender men since the beginning of the subculture, Bear-identified cisgender women and transgender men have been recognized as part of Bear culture since the late 2000s (see "A woman in the bear community" by Iz Connell and the interview "Lesbears and Transbears: Dykes and FTMs as Bears" in the 2009 revised Bears on Bears: Interviews & Discussions book).

I bring this up because while I'm not sure how relevant including a detail like this would be on the page (as again, most Bears are cis men), it may help general readers understand why "Ursula" is included on the list. I'm prematurely adding this to the page, but if it seems too much like a corollary, it'll at least be in the page's discussion. (User:Bluesprucedude)(talk) 16:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Newly emerging internet in the mid-eighties?

[edit]

I'm not sure if that part is correct. - Tournesol (talk) 09:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Heterosexual identification

[edit]

I wonder why isn't there any mention of Bear not being only a homosexual identifier. It is very much used in the heterosexual scene too. In fact we have quotes from people behind XLbear that say it is not about being gay or straight but a state of mind.

https://www.straight.com/life/1029806/savage-love-can-straight-male-call-themselves-bear Kane 1371 (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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