Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball

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MLB at Field of Dreams

A quick note to seek input on having independent articles for MLB at Field of Dreams games, now that a 2022 playing has been announced. My thought is to follow how MLB Little League Classic serves as a base article, with 2017 MLB Little League Classic et al. as pages about the annual editions. So, much of the game detail currently in article MLB at Field of Dreams would move to a 2021 MLB at Field of Dreams article (Yankees vs. White Sox), with a 2022 MLB at Field of Dreams article (Red Sox vs. Orioles) to follow at some point. Comments welcome, thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

It seems to make perfect sense to create Field of Dreams page for each annual game, following the structure of the Little League Classic and annual games. Skilgis1900 (talk) 01:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I suspect the individual games fail WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE for a standalone page. The broader MLB at Field of Dreams is sufficient.—Bagumba (talk) 03:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Fair point—I see for example that NFL Kickoff Game has a single article without individual game pages. While several editors (including me) have helped to construct the individual pages for editions of the Little League Classic, perhaps those should be collapsed back into the main MLB Little League Classic article. Having detailed box scores with individual player stats of such regular-season games does feel like overkill, when a linescore could suffice. What do other editors think? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Any editors with input on this? Comments welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think it will be easier to judge after a few more editions have taken place (or at least one more). isaacl (talk) 04:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

AL & NL Wild Card Game articles infoboxes

Howdy. Just wondering, do we really need to have the two competing teams in each article infobox shown in big letters above the score card? Also, aren't we over-linking to the exact same articles, in the infobox? GoodDay (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This looks like a recent change. I believe its coming from a change made on August 4 to Template:Infobox baseball game by Sqldf03 with comment "added additional data to imitate Template:Infobox basketball game, Template:Infobox football match, & Template:Infobox limited overs final. Example 2019 FIBA Basketball World Cup Final". For what GoodDay is referring to, see for example 2019 American League Wild Card Game—the Tampa and Oakland team names (with links) are just hanging at the top; if there was a final score under each team name it might be helpful (or not); in the current format it does seem quite distracting. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, it's out-of-sync with the AL/NL Division series, AL/NL Championship series & the World Series. GoodDay (talk) 02:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, as the underlying change was made to Template:Infobox baseball game, this shows up on many other individual game pages, such as 2021 MLB Little League Classic, 1976 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, and Fort Bragg Game. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

All of this is correct. I was trying to imitate the navboxes of international competitions similar to FIFA, ICC, and FIBA. I was trying my best to have it not disrupt competitions in regions (i.e. MLB in North America), but looks like it didn't work out. If you two can preserve the format for future international baseball games like the World Baseball Classic, while making it appropriate for regional competitions, that would be excellent. My coding is pretty weak for the languages on Wiki in particular.Sqldf03 (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Sqldf03, thanks for that additional insight. I'll find time this weekend to look at the template and see what might work (other editors are also welcome to do so). This will likely start with reverting the change of August 4, to re-set the various MLB single-game infoboxes to their prior state. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

OK, I believe I fixed it, by adjusting the line in the template that determines when to display the team names and final scores in large font. Essentially, if the visitor_total or home_total fields are used, you get the teams and scores displayed in large font above the linescore (see for example 2009 World Baseball Classic championship). If those fields are not used (and they're not used on MLB pages) it now displays in the "classic" manner (see for example Fort Bragg Game). Other editors are welcome (and encouraged) to review Template:Infobox baseball game around this area. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Awesome! Thank you for the work, I appreciate it.Sqldf03 (talk) 16:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

World Series as career highlight in player infoboxes

After a small flurry of IP edits at Darryl Strawberry, I just want to make sure I understand the current consensus for player infoboxes. If I have it right, we omit the WS as a highlight if the player wasn't on the WS roster. Larry Hockett (Talk) 03:23, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 44 § Inclusion of World Series titles for players not on post season roster. is the last time this was discussed (from there you can trace back to the previous two discussions). There have been numerous points of view presented, without, in my opinion, enough agreement to definitively document an approach. That being said, from the expressed opinions, it seems some editors have used just the World Series roster as a reference, while others have used the postseason roster. isaacl (talk) 04:29, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of the infobox, the prose case use more detail. It mentions his cancer at Darryl Strawberry#Later years, but nothing on its impact to his availability.—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to add that the article should mention if he wasn't placed on the postseason roster, and any appropriately sourced information about why. isaacl (talk) 04:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I added that he placed by Ricky Ledée.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: I've left a notice regarding this discussion at Talk:Darryl Strawberry.—Bagumba (talk) 04:43, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• MLB.com and Baseball-Reference only credit him with 3 World Series championships, so that's what I'd go with an infobox. A lot of people get rings for simply having played on a WS team, but it's be pretty tenuous to say they're WS champions. Nohomersryan (talk) 06:32, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I think there has to be a better understanding here when it comes to this kind of thing, Darryl Strawberry is universally recognized as being a member of the 1998 Yankees team that won the world series. Yes, he did not play in the postseason due to illness, but he did play a significant portion of the regular season and I believe that should qualify him as a champion. Same thing with Dwight Gooden in 1996, spent the entire season with the team, was left off the postseason roster but is still recognized as member of that world series team. Beast from da East (talk) 06:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

From the looks of things, according to the NY times article linked on Darryl Strawberry's page, he was in fact on the postseason roster until being replaced before game 3 of the ALDS by Ricky Ledee as stated aboce. Now with that being said, as I believe any player on the postseason roster qualifies as per consensus regardless of having played or not, Strawberry qualifies. But still, it really needs to be better clarified on here. I'm not saying players who were traded mid-season or September call-ups need to be added, but if a player has played a significant amount of time, it just has to be considered. Beast from da East (talk) 07:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The consensus has been that if they didn't play in the WS they don't qualify... and that is what most of the reliable sources such as BR use as a guide as well.Spanneraol (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe BR's rule is that they must appear in at least one game during any of the playoff rounds that year, not necessarily the World Series. Just picking a random year, and Gavin Lux and Matt Beaty are both listed as 2020 World Series champions and only appeared in the NLDS and NLCS, respectively. Penale52 (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I would like to emphasize that "person X got a ring" is immaterial and should not be used as the basis for World Series infobox designations. Especially as in recent seasons, teams have awarded rings to a wide swath of personnel, players and non-players alike (e.g. the Red Sox gave Jason Varitek a 2018 World Series ring for his work with the team as a non-uniformed coaching consultant). I've seen editors use "he got a ring" various times (two examples being Tzu-Wei Lin and Dustin Pedroia of the 2018 Red Sox) and while it may be well-intentioned, it is not appropriate criterion. Looking at the discussion above, I really have to disagree with "played a significant amount of time" for a team during the regular season, because it is completely subjective. I believe that what Penale52 states about BR's criterion (essentially, that the player appeared in any postseason game for the champions) is accurate, an example being Tim Wakefield with the 2007 Red Sox (played in the ALCS but not the WS, although I have a dim recollection he may have been on the team's initial WS roster and was removed due to injury... need to check the detail). Good to discuss this topic here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I looked at this a bit further, and from what I see, BR and MLB.com are using slightly different criterion. Dave Roberts and Tim Wakefield are listed as WS champions for 2004 and 2007, respectively, by BR despite neither of them playing in those respective World Series (both did play in the respective ALCS prior to the WS). In contrast, Roberts and Wakefield are not listed as WS champions for those World Series by MLB. See:

- Tim Wakefield BR and MLB

- Dave Roberts BR and MLB

I take this to further confirm that BR's criterion is "made a playoff appearance for the WS champion", while MLB uses the stricter criterion of "played in the WS for the WS champion". Now, for Darryl Strawberry, he is not listed as a 1998 WS champion by either BR or MLB, as (we can infer) simply being on a team's roster doesn't satisfy their criterion.

- Darryl Strawberry BR and MLB

As we have a couple of (very) reliable sources with evidently different criterion, we may have some leeway on which we give precedence to, but I believe we remain bounded by those criteria, we don't get to make up our own (e.g. we also don't get to define our own criteria that would credit Armando Galarraga with pitching a perfect game). Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman)

Curious if players with so little known about them, such as their name, should have stand alone articles, or one for all of them. WP:NCBASE says "Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability." & "Articles that are not sourced to published material providing significant coverage of the subject (beyond just statistics sites) may be nominated for deletion." Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 10:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Lee Smith (baseball)/archive1

This featured article review is winding down, with most of the largest issues addressed. Any further attention/help here would be greatly appreciated. Hog Farm _Talk 03:36, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Draft:2021 American League Wild Card tie-breaker game

Created, just in case. Additions/updates welcome as warranted. I'll delete it if not needed. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:26, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Tie-breaker averted; draft deleted. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I was really hoping for the chaos of a four-way tie.. alas the baseball gods never give us that. Spanneraol (talk) 01:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Random question

(Sorry, this is way too vague to search for, so apologies if this has been asked before.)

I noticed that someone appended "U.S." to the places of birth/death in the Eddie Robinson infobox. While this seems standard elsewhere, I've noticed it's not in nearly any baseball article I've read for... whatever reason. (And most sports articles, for that matter.) Was this ever something officially hashed out, or just some silent consensus? For the record, I don't have any real thoughts on it. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:53, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Might go against WP:USPLACE but I'm not sure. Klohinx^talk 08:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

USPLACE applies mainly to page titles, not necessarily to references to place names.—Bagumba (talk) 09:32, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Easter-egging team season articles

Is there a consensus about the practice of easter-egging team seasons in baseball articles? Per MOS:EASTEREGG: "Per the principle of least astonishment, make sure that the reader knows what to expect when clicking on a link ... If a link takes readers to somewhere other than where they thought it would, it should at least take them somewhere that makes sense." Bob Welch (baseball) was recently edited which brought this to mind. I can see some uses as sensible, in the Los Angeles Dodgers section:

• "Welch gained national fame with Los Angeles in 1978" - the link goes to the Dodgers 1978 season (ok)

Whereas some sentences are mixed:

• "Welch won his first World Series in 1981 with the Los Angeles Dodgers after they defeated the New York Yankees in six games." - 1981 links to that year's World Series (ok - but the previous usage above suggests linking "World Series in 1981" might be better) but the team links link to each of those team's 1981 seasons (hmm - both are linked in the 1981 World Series article, and here seem weird, as they're not obvious. I expect a team link to go to the team article itself.)

And others are outright awkward:

• "In 1983, he threw a complete-game shutout and hit a solo home run for his team's only run." - the word "team" gives no clues, but links to the 1983 Dodgers article (why?)

Personally, I am a fan of keeping such team season links obvious, such as "With the Dodgers in 1983", but wanted to check in for possible consensus. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that links to the team's relevant season is useful in a bio. They do need to be intuitive. As for the above, I'd rewrite it as "Welch won his first World Series with the Dodgers in 1981" (he had been with the Dodgers, so no reason to repeat "Los Angeles Dodgers") and "In 1983, he threw a complete-game shutout and hit a solo home run for his team's only run." ("his team" is more intutively the Dodgers, not the Dodgers' 1983 season.)—Bagumba (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I don't like this practice in prose, as it breaks the best web practice of having descriptive link text (I am more amenable to these types of links in tables, where a legend can be used to describe the destination). The links require more cognitive overhead to process and incrementally add to the easter egg problem, which is cumulative across all Wikipedia pages. Each unexpected link may only erode predictability a little, but eventually a tipping point is reached and readers become hesitant to follow links. I also suspect that for those using alternative browsing interfaces such as screen readers, the ability to use neighbouring context to infer a link destination is more constrained. In particular I don't like linking team names to team season pages in prose. But I recognize that more people (on this talk page, at least) support the practice than not. isaacl (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

It can be made clearer for instance by changing the text to read "Welch won his first World Series with the Dodgers during the 1981 season". Adding "season" to the text makes it more clear that you are going to the season article. That's what I tend to do in bio articles. Spanneraol (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)