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March 2

Does final-obstruent devoicing occur in Albanian?

A book of mine says it does, another says it doesn't. --Theurgist (talk) 00:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

This source says "Final devoicing in Albanian is characteristic of Northern Tosk and transitional Southern Geg but not of the Standard." Other Google hits seem to be consistent with this.

http://www.XXXXXX.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cts=1330691229092&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffly.jiuhuashan.beauty%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fwww.seelrc.org%3A8080%2Fgrammar%2Fpdf%2Falbanian_bookmarked.pdf&ei=lLxQT_WfKOb04QTbmNnxDQ&usg=AFQjCNHhklwydjStL-uBxNeR0W0UWS48fw

Replace "XXXXXX" with "google" in link. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Why did you change the google link to a porno link? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Because WP spam filter doesn't let me give links to Google results. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Next time use the <nowiki></nowiki> tags - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 15:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

That URL redirects to http://www.seelrc.org:8080/grammar/pdf/albanian_bookmarked.pdf. -- BenRG (talk) 03:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Bahri Beci in Fonetika e gjuhës shqipe (Tirana, 2004) doesn't seem to mention it anywhere, but he doesn't treat phonological processes in very great detail (he seems to focus on a phonetic analysis in "ideal" contexts). He does mention that the voiced/voiceless opposition is neutralized in many dialects, especially in southern ones, depending on context and position (page 101). But he doesn't give any examples unfortunately. --Terfili (talk) 13:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Cantonese help

About 梁挺 - Long Ting (see Wong Fei-hung) - the first character is loeng4, but is the second ting2 or ting5? WhisperToMe (talk) 06:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

And what is the Cantonese reading of 吞食天地 (Tūn Shí Tiān Dì 3)?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 23:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Medieval "almest"

Can you give me the definition of "almest"? Is it like what we would say today: "almost"? --Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Context would be Acts 1:15 - In tho daies Petre roos vp in the myddil of the britheren, and seide; and ther was a company of men togidere, almest an hundrid and twenti;

Yes, it is "almost". See sense 2 here. Deor (talk) 22:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Fly or flye?

A trainer at the gym, out where I work (take that prescriptivists!) said that the exercise I've thought of as a fly is actually spelt 'flye'

Our page confirms that that is an alternative, but I can't find any sources confirming that, or even explaining whence that spelling comes!

My question is--what's the scoop? Can anyone find any explanations for why the heck they'd call this a 'flye'?66.30.10.71 (talk) 23:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whye. :) Flye is an obsolete alternate for "fly", not just in the exercise context as our Wiktionary article implies, but also for the sense of flight (see: birds of a feather flock together "Byrdes of on kynde and color flok and flye allwayes together." (William Turner, 1545)). I find it hard to believe that the exercise has been around since the days when flye and fly were on equal footing, but I suppose it's possible. Oddly, Etymoline has nothing for "flye". Matt Deres (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

The earliest references to the exercise I can find through Google are in books on bodybuilding in the 70's - first in "Stay Hungry" in 1972, then in "Pumping Iron" in 1974, then in "Arnold" and "The sexual outlaw" in 1977. In those books, the word is usually used as plural ("flyes") and it is derived from the "flying motion" of the exercise. I would speculate that early bodybuilders chose the spelling "flyes" to distinguish between the exercise and the insect, and then someone turned "flyes" into singular "flye".--Itinerant1 (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Our article Fly (exercise) mentions the alternate spelling in the lede, and uses the plural "flyes" in the lede, and "flies" everywhere else. I'd fix it, except I don't know which plural to chose... -NorwegianBlue ^talk 10:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

There's also one source of uncertain reliability that says that George Eifferman mentioned bent arm flyes in an article in the Muscle Builder magazine in September 1953, but it is not known how the exercise was called at that time, and the magazine does not seem to be available online.--Itinerant1 (talk) 02:28, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

This sort of (seemingly) arbitrary "silent-e" adding to words to distinguish their meaning by spelling happens in other cases as well. Consider Barre chord, which is named because the index finger forms a stiff "bar" across all of the strings of an stringed instrument, like a guitar. The spelling evolved to "barre" so as not to confuse the term with the musical term Bar, but the two different words come from the same root word (bar, meaning a straight line or stiff rod). The same thing happens with "lede/lead" for the first paragraph of an article. --Jayron32 13:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

OP here---Fascinating! If Itinerant is correct that some early bodybuilders simply invented the term, it's odd how little ground it seems to have gained in modern parlance. The vast majority of sites I checked don't use the term.66.30.10.71 (talk) 19:34, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

My gut feeling, and that's all it is, is that it wasn't so much "invented" as a simple spelling mistake when forming the plural of "fly". Someone misspelled it as "flyes", and then someone backformed the singular to "flye" - all in the mistaken belief that they were following the rules of English spelling (to the letter - pun). It's amazing how attached some people can be to their errors and misconceptions (not just with language, either), and insist on their correctness, usually because someone they trust told them so and it sounds plausible to them, so it must be so. They then help spread the erroneous word to others. (I've lost count of how many times people have insisted to me that the true etymology of the word "fuck" is an acronym - but the set of 4 words they proffer is always slightly different.) If the someone they trust was known for their prowess in body building but not exactly renowned for their expertise with the English language - and to be fair, those two fields of human endeavour don't often coincide in the same person - then there's your answer to why the term is not entirely unknown but not widely used or accepted either. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

It's certainly plausible. If so, it wouldn't be the first time, "fly" was unintentionally modified for a sport. In the realm of baseball, for example, the past tense of "fly out" is not "flew out", but "flied out", as in "Jones flied out to the left fielder to end the game." But we would still say "The Yankees flew out to Seattle to begin their road trip." Intentional or not, I think it's a good thing for the most part; English words can acquire so many different meanings, it only seems fair to spread the load around a bit and invent new words to carry some of the burden. Just consider all the work words like "set" and "run" have to do, poor things... Matt Deres (talk) 14:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

March 3

can something be unlistenable?

I would think that something couldn't be unlistenable, it could only be unlistenable to. --80.99.254.208 (talk) 07:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Verbs converted to other parts of speech don't always drag along their full "valence"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

As a term it tends to be found in discussions of popular music, where language is not always at its most formal. But quality newpapers use "unlistenable" without "to", e.g. New York Times, London Telegraph. "-able" attached to a verb as a suffix often does not have the literal meaning "unable to do X" (see also "unreasonable", "unthinkable") so it can't be substituted for the verb in a straighforward way. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

"E" and "I" confusion

I speak English with a southern British accent and my real name contains the letter "E". Whenever I have to spell out my name, many people write "I" when I have said "E". Why is this? Astronaut (talk) 11:18, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Where exactly? I have a very neutral southern British accent and I've only had that problem when I've spoken to a Frenchman. In French eee is "I", rather than "E".  Omg †  osh  12:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Whenever I have to spell my name in French, it always comes out as "Peshep"... Adam Bishop (talk) 13:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe your pronunciation of the E (or the listener's impression of it) is affected in some way by the previous letter - what is that? Does the I give a plausible spelling of the name, or of something similar? AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Many english vowels are "reduced" in unstressed syllables, which can make it quite hard to distinguish among them. See Vowel reduction and Vowel reduction in English. This sort of reduction of vowels can vary greatly between accents and dialects, so without knowing either your specific dialect, or your actual name, it would be hard to directly analyze what is going on in this one case, except to note that it does happen a lot. --Jayron32 13:42, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe "whenever..." is an exaggeration.It never used to happen at all, but it has become a common enough occurrence now, that I watch carefully to see what they have written down and correct them if necessary. Often though, it is over the telephone. Only later do I find out they have written it down wrong, for example when the promised email doesn't arrive.I suppose it is possible they are not native speakers of English, but I would imagine that they would have quickly realised this potential problem. @Adam: Yes I know about French. When I lived in France, I had to learn to spell my name in French, so they at least had a chance to write it down correctly. Astronaut (talk) 13:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

See Spelling alphabet.—Wavelength (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I sympathise but have a different problem - when I say A people think I said I and the other way round. Apparently it's my Black Country accent. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm Australian. Americans do not understand the "o" sound in my name or the letter sound when I spell it. That confusion also makes it difficult to order a Coke. HiLo48 (talk) 21:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be an Aussie tendency to pronounce "o" as if it were spelled "er". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

And a more recent one that pronounces "o" like "eye" or "oy". When some people say "phone home", to me they sound exactly like they're saying "fine hime", and "I know" can sound like "I noy". There's a strong tendency among certain people to remain smiling at all times, with the lips spread permanently wide, even when saying the "o" sound, which is actually impossible. There's a lot that could be written about the Australian "o", because it's been in a state of flux for many decades and has yet to arrive at any sort of settled destination. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 06:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

That might actually be what I'm hearing, combined with the British and Aussie (and American northeast) tendency to add a trailing "r" where there isn't one. So "no" might be "nire" or "noyr" something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:29, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Among us midwesterners, at least, there was a joke about JFK during the missile crisis, "quoting" him as saying, "We must get the Russians out of Cuber, with viguh!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→

Kukley, Milhey and Nizilon

These are the names of the three Martyrs of Vilnius (they took Anthony, John and Eustace as their Christian names). They are also identified as Kumets, Nezhilo and Kruglets. My question is: are Kukley, Nizilon and Milhey old Lithuanian given names? and, are Kumets, Nezhilo and Kruglets the Russian variants? Thanks. --Kenatipo ^speak! 21:21, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

The Polish article refers to them as Kumec, Nieżyło, and Kruglec. The other set of names doesn't seem Lithuanian, they look like weird (who's Milhey?) anglicized versions of the Slavic names to me. Also, the three were sent to Vilnius from (probably) Moscow, so we don't even know if they were Lithuanian... 109.97.144.95 (talk) 14:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it's weird. I went to the Lithuanian wiki and searched for the names and got nothing. What I'm really interested in knowing is if they were Lithuanian. One source says they were fire-worshipping Lithuanian nobles in the court of Grand Duke Algirdas--he wouldn't be executing Russians, would he? The weird names come from saintpatrickdc.org which sources to (Benedictines, Coulson, Encyclopedia, Husenbeth). Milhey was John's given name according to stpatrickdc. --Kenatipo ^speak! 16:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to wait for a Lithuanian person or some sort of expert to sort this one out... 109.97.144.95 (talk) 20:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

From the historical point of view, it seems unlikely that they were Slavic. Christianity was well established in Northwestern Rus by the time it came under the Lithuanian rule. Primary sources describe the martyrs as "fire worshippers, like others of their kin", a strong indication that they were ethnic Lithuanians.

However, they were converted into Eastern Orthodox Christianity and canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church, and most narratives documenting this story are Slavic.

Based on what I could find so far, the most logical conclusion to me is that either these names are made up, or that "Kumets, Nezhilo and Kruglets" are "slavifications" of their real Lithuanian names.

I can't tell where "Kukley and Milhey" came from originally. They could be attempts to de-slavificate the names. They are present, as "Kuklej and Michlej", in "Dzieje starozytne narodu litewskiego" by Teodor Narbutt (1835-1841), and he may have gotten them from the works of Albert Wijuk Kojałowicz.--Itinerant1 (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

There exist several versions of their hagiography and only one of the Greek originals is saved, all the others are in Church Slavonic. So even they could be ethnic Lithuanians, their names from the Slavic sources - Кумец, Нежило, Круглец - seem to be Slavic. Kruglets is from the root of krugly "round, stout" + a diminutive suffix -ets. Kumets is from kum "godfather", which can also mean "a friend or a relative" + -ets. Nezhilo is from the root of nezhny "tender, gentle" as well as nezhit' "an evil spirit", -ilo is a common diminutive suffix. Their names can sound strange for us, but in those old times these folk nicknames were very common, even more common than Christian "official" names. The great bulk of Slavic (at least Russian) surnames derived from nicknames.
As for Kukley, Milhey Mikhley and Nizilon they are just variants, first two are written in Russian as Куклей, Миклей/Михлей. They look more strange for me though Kukley can derive from kukol which means both "a hood" and "agrostemma". Nizilon is most probably a hellenization/grecization of Nezhilo. Mikley/Mikhley looks like a diminutive of Mikhail (his another Christian name?). I suppose these variants came from some Greek text.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for your responses—they are helpful and informative. --Kenatipo ^speak! 23:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

March 4

adding Arabic language

how can i Add Arabic language to English article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shitya (talk • contribs) 08:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

To some extent, it will depend on your software and its configuration, but you can use the tool below the Wikipedia edit form; by default, it's set to "insert", but you can use the pull-down menu to select other scripts, including Arabic... AnonMoos (talk) 08:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation: Do words like "13", "14", etc. have the emphasis on the first syllable, or on the last one?

As you see, I'm not a native speaker. My problem is with the dictionaries vs. what I hear. All the dictionaries I've seen (including audio-dictionaries like this one) - indicate that the stress is on the last syllable, but I often (or maybe even always?) hear people say those words with the accent being on the first syllable. Does that have anything to do with the variety of English? Would anybody like to remove the confusion? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 09:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with variety of English, but rather a desire to distinguish between "thirteen" and "thirty". In British English the stress is on the first syllable, but care has to be taken to enunciate both syllables properly to avoid this confusion. Hope this helps. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So why do dictionaries mark the stress on the last syllable? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

This may depend on the variety of British English you're speaking. In my experience (as a native-born Brit from Northern England) the (slight) stress generally is on the last syllable unless you're simply counting (so "there were fifteen men on the pitch but "twelve, thirteen, fourteen..."). When counting the stress is marginally greater; possibly simply due to the rhythm of counting itself. OR, I know. Tonywalton ^Talk 12:18, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Your example of the men on the pitch, make me feel you disagree with the conclusion of this discussion user:NorwegianBlue has indicated. Am I correct? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 17:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

This discussion on Wordreference.com, concludes that stress may depend on the position of the word in the sentence, at least in General American English. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 11:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanx. BTW, the discussion you're taking about - was between two persons, one of whom was a Brit - being the one who answered the question. Anyways, what would user:TammyMoet (as a Brit) say about that?77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As TammyMoet notes, the most important concern in all cases is to make the distinction between thirty and thirteen clear.

My immediate reaction to this question is to say that in my Estuary-ish BrE accent, thirteen has stress on its second syllable, while thirty has stress on its first syllable. Certainly, if you just add an /n/ on the end of thirty, it still sounds like thirty. That said, I think the stress pattern on thirteen is rather more even than it is on thirty: certainly, the first syllable of thirteen is not reduced for me (at least when I say the word in isolation). Pfainuk talk 12:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So, may it have two stresses, i.e. a primary one and a secondary one? ?77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I live in London, and I believe that both stresses can be heard here, without any particular meaning attached to either. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As a Londoner, can you approve of the following: "13 years" tends (in London) more - to have the stress (of 13) - on the first syllable, while "my age is 13" tends (in London) more - to have the stress (of 13) - on the final syllable? Note that I'm asking about a general tendency, rather than about a constant rule. Additionally, do you agree with User:Tonywalton's claim above? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave it for Alan to answer for London, but I would have said that this is true in general British English. Here in the north, the /i:/ of thirteen is much longer than the /i/ of thirty. As another northerner, I agree with Tony Walton, but I'm not convinced by the general rule in Wiktionary (with validity claimed over a much wider English-speaking population): that thirteen is stressed on the first syllable if the following word is also stressed on the first ("thirteen dollars"), but stressed on the last if the following word is stressed later ("thirteen antidisestablishmentarians"). I would still keep the stress on the first syllable for almost any following words regardless of their stress, and retain a final stress in thirteen only when it is a final word or when I wanted to clearly distinguish it from thirty. Mileage may vary by region and culture. Dbfirs 22:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you agree with Tony Walton? Notice that he pronounces: "there were fifteen men on the pitch", as opposed to what you've just claimed. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 22:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I think 77.127 is probably right. Alansplodge (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was half asleep! (I've struck my agreement above). Perhaps the double stress is the best explanation, with the greater stress depending on the rhythm of the sentence and the occasional need to distinguish from thirty. I can't find any consistent rule. Dbfirs 07:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I (GA speaker) agree with Dbfirs. There are thirteen men on the pitch, and there are thirteen examinations to pass. But, at the end of a prosodic unit, the stress shifts to the second syllable: "How many days until the concert? Thirteen." And, "The number of men at the table was thirteen, Jesus and the twelve apostles.".Atemperman (talk) 08:53, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 12:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In my experience, numbers under 21 being counted out loud tend to emphasize the first syllable. Even "12" kinda sounds like "TWE-lve". 21 and up tend to emphasize the trailing digit the same was in 1 through 9. The purpose would be to emphasize the part of the number that's different from the numbers preceeding and following. If mentioned standalone, the second syllable of 1-19 is more likely to be the one emphasized. 20 is TWEN-ty, although when counting out loud, the TWEN is usually more deliberately emphasized. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

So, do you say: "fifteen years"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In that phrase, "years" will get the emphasis, and "fif-teen" won't see either syllable noticeably stressed. If someone says "How old are you?" the answer is more like "fif-TEEN", though the "teen" is not stressed as much as the "fif-" when counting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanx. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:56, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation: Is the last t in "restaurant" pronounced?

Some dictionaries (like this audio-dictionary) indicate that the last t is pronounced, while other dictionaries (like Collins Dictionary) indicate that the last t is not pronounced. Does that have anything to do with the variety of English? Would anybody like to remove the confusion? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 09:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that I pronounce the final "t" if it is followed by a vowel, but not if it is followed by a consonant. Bluap (talk) 11:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I guess (by looking at your userpage) you're a Brit. Next time, please indicate your variety of English, because it seems like the answer to my question depends on that. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:25, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The only time I (a native South African English speaker) ever hear other SAE speakers say it without the final "t" is when the speaker is affecting a "Fake French" accent, which I suspect is an instance of hypercorrection. Roger (talk) 11:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So it seems like there's a difference between the varieties of English. BTW, some dictionaries (like Collins Dictionary) indicate that the last t is not pronounced, so this doesn't look like a hypercorrection. Anyways. Thank you for your answer. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:25, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

For me, (American English from the South-East), both seem fine to me, but I usually drop the 't'. Then again, I often drop lots of consonants, such as the 't' in 'it' (who is i'?) for example. Falconus^{p t c} 15:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can compare - your dropping the t in "it" - to your dropping the t in "restaurant": When dropping the t in "it" - you just replace the t by a glottal stop (like the middle consonant in "bottle"), whereas, when dropping the t in "restaurant", you actaully replace the nt by ng, as if it were spelled "restaurong", i.e. "rest a wrong". Am I correct? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 16:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

What you and everyone else are probably referring to is an unreleased stop, that is, the "t" is pronounced, but not fully, as it would be in another position. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about the t in "who is it", or about the final t in "restaurant"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 19:06, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe he's referring to the t at the end of restaurant; as you mentioned, the t of it is often only a glottal stop. When I pronounce (I'm from SW Ontario) the final sounds of restaurant, my mouth closes and my tongue moves forward slightly to pronounce the n and my tongue touches my palate to make the t, but it often doesn't do the immediate drop down to accommodate the exhalation to make the sound complete. It's nothing like an eng sound; it's just an unreleased t that slightly colours the n. That typically occurs when the word is followed by a pause, as at the end of a sentence; if another word (that doesn't begin with t) immediately follows then the t is completed. At least in my case. :) Matt Deres (talk) 19:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Same for me (also from SW Ontario). And I can see how "who is it" might end in a glottal stop in certain circumstances, maybe if it is being yelled, but normally it's just an unreleased stop like in "restaurant". Adam Bishop (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

All right, so now I have your (user:Adam Bishop's and user:Matt Deres') testimony about SW Ontario accent. Anyways, as far as the RP accent is concerned, Collins Dictionary indicates that "restaurant" is pronounced just like "rest a wrong", so that (in the RP accent) this is not an issue of an unreleased t, but rather an issue of replacing the "nt" by "ng". 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, RP speakers are more likely to retain the French pronunciation /ˈɹɛst.əˌɹɑ̃/, but here in the north we often anglicise to /ˈɹɛst.ˌɹɒnt/. (or /ˈɹɛst.əˌɹɒnt/), with the "t" sometimes fully released. Lots of variations are possible, and heard. Dbfirs 22:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

But "Alice's restauRANT" is not the name of the restauRANT"

It's just the name of the song

Which is why I call this song

"Alice's restauRANT" -- Arlo Guthrie

--Trovatore (talk) 22:32, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh great! So it's a clear proof about the American accent of Brooklyn. BTW, how about GA? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 22:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's what Guthrie is doing...it sounds like "-rant" with a "t" to me, especially when (in the actual song) it is rhymed with "want". Adam Bishop (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems like you disagree with me, but I just said Guthrie's song "is a clear proof about the American accent of Brooklyn". Don't you agree that his song "is a clear proof about the American accent of Brooklyn"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was actually disagreeing with Trovatore. I don't know anything about Brooklyn accents aside from what I hear in TV shows and movies, and he doesn't sound like that stereotypical sort of accent...what is Guthrie's accent, anyway? Is that even the way he really talks? I've never heard him speak or sing, aside from Alice's Restaurant, and I imagined it was a parody of a "country" accent. But that's a different question... Adam Bishop (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not clear what you're disagreeing with. You said it was "-rant" with a t; nothing I wrote contradicts that. To me the distinctive feature (that is, the thing most different from how I pronounce the word) is that Guthrie puts the principal stress on the last syllable. --Trovatore (talk) 00:37, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I thought you were saying the -rant part rhymed with "song" (in agreement with the apparent Received Pronunciation where "restaurant" ends with "ng"). Adam Bishop (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's definitely pronounced in Detroit, where it would be said as "rest Ur rawnt" or possibly "rest or rawnt". StuRat (talk) 04:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've always heard it with a trailing "t" regardless of region in America. As for Arlo Guthrie, he's being funny. Americans will sometimes em-PHA-size the wrong syl-LAB-le for comedic effect or for making some particular point. When he actually sings the song's tag line, he says "REST-ur-ahnt", the normal way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Interesting that it seems Americans pronounce it with three syllables. In South African English it has only two - rest-rahnt - with a barely perceptible schwa linking them. Roger (talk) 09:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for not checking back here sooner; I definitely do not pronounce restaurant with an "ng" at the end; restaurong doesn't sound at all right to me. If anything, I drop the 't', and don't pronounce the 'n' very clearly. Falconus^{p t c} 12:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the "ng" was a misunderstanding. Wasn't /ˈɹɛst.əˌɹɑ̃/ intended, rather like the French /ʁɛs.tɔ.ʁɑ̃/? Northern English has rest-rant like in South Africa, though it varies by "class" and culture. Dbfirs 14:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Collins Dictionary indicates that "restaurant" is pronounced "rest a wrong", i.e. as if it were spelled "restaurong", and this is what I'd meant by "ng". As for the French pronunciation, its "ant" is pronounced as the English speakers of Canada pronounce the "ong" in "wrong". 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As an American of Southern Hillfolk dialect by upbringing, and Milwaukeean by adoption, I will admit that I'm gobsmacked by the idea that anybody would ever say "rest a wrong" except as a humorous gallicization! I've never heard it without the final 't' and with a full three syllables. As to Arlo Guthrie: in the song, he's speaking and singing in an idiolect derived mostly from his Oklahoman daddy, with only the slightist shading of the Northeast to it. He still has some of Oklahoma in his ordinary speech, and very little of the Brooklynese you credit him with. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

All right. Oklahoma. As for "rest a wrong", this is how Collins Dictionary describes the way "restaurant" is pronounced in the British accent. I've never claimed that's relevant to the GA accent. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Mangled Hungarian braille inscription in logo

Look at the logo of Szól a Szív Alapítvány. This has a mangled braille inscription at the bottom. The baseline is curved and the spaces are compressed so it would probably be difficult to read without context, but from the context (the name of the foundation which is also shown on the top part of the logo) you can guess it wants to say “szól a szív”.

What I'm really puzzled about, though, is the very first character, the one before the sz. This looks like it's braille dots 4-6. What is that character supposed to be, and what does it mean? One guess is that it's supposed to be braille dot 6, meaning a capital letter, which would make sense because the foundation writes its name capitalized as “»Szól a szív…« Alapítvány”.

(I've seen this inscription on a bulletin board irl, but I didn't take a photo, for I thought their homepage would contain a suitable quality rendition of the logo.) – b_jonas 18:33, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Update: I have now cross-posted this to w:hu:Wikipédia:Tudakozó#Nehezen_olvashat.C3.B3_magyar_nyelv.C5.B1_Braille_felirat_egy_log.C3.B3ban. Feel free to reply in either place. – b_jonas 16:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Turns out, it is 4-6, and means capital letter prefix just like in French braille, only the article w:hu:Braille-írás didn't know that. – b_jonas 22:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Etymology of "Catathelasma"

Hello.

This is a question about Ancient Greek, not about mushrooms. I would like to understand the exact derivation of the name of the mushroom genus "Catathelasma". It is derived from a word or expression which means "running down" (referring to the way the lamellae run down the stem - they are "decurrent"). I have found that καταθἐω means "I run down", and I think that "Catathelasma" must be a noun formed from that verb. By the way, I also found that θῄλασμα means "breastfeeding", but I think that has nothing to do with the fungus.

Please could you explain exactly how the neuter noun "Catathelasma" would be formed? For instance, I can't understand where the letter "l" would come from. Thanks in advance for your attention.

Strobilomyces (talk) 19:05, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually cata- is a prefix in Greek, meaning "down". I don't know anything about the mushroom but for whatever reason it's a combination of the word for "breastfeeding" and the prefix for "down". Adam Bishop (talk) 21:05, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The root is actually θηλυς "female", as far as I can determine, though there is another verb θελεω "to flourish, be abundant with"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:20, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

For θήλασμα, the root is actually just θη, the lambda being part of a suffix (see Smyth § 860 and Chantraine's entry for θηλὴ at pp. 434-435).

Strobilomyces, may I ask, how do you know that the word derives from something meaning "running down"? If that is the case, then θήλασμα is not part of the etymology but καταθέω would be as you surmise, although for such a case I could not fully explain the construction with -lasma except to guess that whichever biologist named it was just being creative with Greek suffixes. However, Adam Bishop's derivation from κατα + θήλασμα seems like a good guess to me. If you want a deeper etymology than that, please ask. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:29, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The author of the genus is Ruth Ellen Harrison Lovejoy, and her original description of the genus [ Lovejoy RH. (1910). "Some New saprophytic fungi of the middle Rocky Mountain region". Botanical Gazette, Crawfordsville. 50 (3): 383–85. ] is on-line at [1]. As Iblardi found and quoted below, Mrs. Lovejoy says that the name is based on the decurrent character of the gills (i.e. they run down the stem. Here is a photo of another type of Catathelasma, showing how the gills run down the stem (I think there are no photos or drawings of the species which Mrs. Lovejoy found and described - Catathelasma evanescens). What I would really like is either a deeper etymology based on running down, or an explanation of what under-breastfeeding has to do with the mushroom. Strobilomyces (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The snippet included in the top search result here (Gender of generic names . . .) indicates that the paper's author definitely considered the name to be derived from κατα + θήλασμα. Deor (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't have access to the body of the paper. Could you quote what the author says which indicates the meaning in relation to the mushroom? Strobilomyces (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

[e.c.] The source is Lovejoy (1910): "Catathelasma, gen. nov. . . The ring and volva, together with the very decided decurrent gills (upon which character the generic name is based), are telling characteristics of this genus of the Leucosporae." I must say that the connection with suckling is lost on me too. There does exist a genus called Lactarius which is able to leak a milky substance. Could this also be the case with Catathelasma? Iblardi (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it certainly doesn't exude milk like Lactarius - Mrs. Lovejoy would have had to have said so. Strobilomyces (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot to everyone for all the answers! Well, I think I am still left with two possibilities:

1. the name means "running down(wards)" and is a false (fanciful) formation from καταθέω, or
2. the name means "down/under breastfeeding", from κατα + θήλασμα.

In the latter case, I would still like to understand what the etymology has to do with the mushroom. I think there are no photos or drawings of Lovejoy's species Catathelasma evanescens, but here is a photo of a related species, showing how the gills run down the stem. I must admit that the stem of the C. evanescens is described as being extremely short (Lovejoy says only 1cm long by 4cm thick, but that is impossibly short, it must be a mistake), so perhaps the whole mushroom upside-down might look a bit like a breast? But how could that tie in with Mrs. Lovejoy's comment that the name is for the decurrent gills? There is a type of fungus called "trumpets of the dead", the idea being that they are like trumpets being played by dead people under the ground. Are the Catathelasma mushrooms supposedly being suckled by babies under the ground? This explanation seems wildly implausible to me, so I still think that the first possibility is more likely.

Anyway, thanks again and I would still be interested in any further clues which anyone could bring to the subject.

Strobilomyces (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, since Lovejoy named it, we cannot doubt that she did intend to derive the name from καταθέω. You're not going to get better than her first hand account. My first guess in that case was that she would have used creative suffix-additions to arrive at a novel noun καταθέλασμα (whether she intended this to be feminine or a neuter with genitive καταθελάσματος, I do not know; what Deor cites shows that it was later understood to be neuter). Another possibility is that she knew of καταθέω but checked a lexicon for its derivatives and saw καταθήλασμα and mistook it for one of these derivatives (maybe she even fully recognized the definition of "breastfeeding" but erroneously explained away the connection as the milk, sort of, "runs down" from the breast to the infant). So, either she derived the name more directly from καταθέω with a creative back-formation or more indirectly from καταθέω erroneously via the unrelated καταθήλασμa. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I confused the issue. I should have said: Another possibility is that she looked for derivatives of θέω and saw θήλασμα and mistook that as one of these derivatives, then she merely added κατα to match up with the derived καταθέω which had the derived meaning she wanted. Here's some speculation: Suffixing with λα and then μα or ματ (including sigma insertion) just seems very unlikely since, as far as I can tell, this has only ever occurred with θήλασμα. So then she would have gotten the suffixing from θήλασμα? But if she was looking at θήλασμα isn't it more likely that she simply mistook this as being related to θέω due to the similarity and so used it for the name? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Catathelasma is definitely taken to be neuter; that is important as it affects the endings of the species, such as C. ventricosum. evanescens must be invariant. I think you have answered the question as well as it can be - the name must be a mistaken construction starting from καταθέω, but influenced by θήλασμa. Where people say that the etymology is κατα + θήλασμα (for instance Deor's reference and in the entry in the French wikipedia), I can't really say that that's wrong. Thanks in any case. Strobilomyces (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The German Etymologisches Wörterbuch der botanischen Pflanzennamen (1996) offers the following explanation: "Catathelásma (...): wohl zu gr. katá <herab> und thēlasma <das Saugen>: Benennungsmotiv unklar; wahrscheinl. werden die bis auf den Stiel herablaufenden, schmutzig-weiß bis blaß-gelblichen Lamellen mit dem Bild einer beim Saugen gestreckten Milchzitze verglichen." - "Catathelásma (...) probably from Greek katá (down) and thēlasma (the [act of] sucking); naming motif unclear: probably the dirty-white to bleak-yellowish lamellae, which run down onto the stalk, were compared to the image of a nipple being stretched out during suckling." See here. Iblardi (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't suppose anyone can find a more pertinent reference than that. I don't actually have access to the relevant page - anyway Genaust must have thought about it and must have known about Lovejoy's explanation mentioning the decurrent gills. I don't understand why he says "dirty white to pale yellowish" for the gills; Lovejoy just says "white" for everything (only the cap centre was cream, and the internal flesh whitish). Perhaps Genaust had access to another description. I find the whole picture very far-fetched and difficult to reconcile with Lovejoy's account. Strobilomyces (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

More about sentences that are pronounced similarly and mean the same thing in unrelated languages

I previously asked about sentences that are pronounced similarly and mean the same thing in unrelated languages, such as Ki ez? in Hungarian and Qui est-ce? in French, which both mean "Who is that?". Now I remembered the Finnish word for tow truck, hinausauto (literally "towing automobile", from hinata "to tow" and auto "automobile"). This both looks and sounds identical to a (hypothetical) German word hinaus-Auto, meaning "away from here automobile", from hinaus "away from here" and Auto "automobile". Now obviously auto in both languages is a loanword from Greek, but I find it interesting that hinaus means "towing" in Finnish and "away from here" in German, and the overall meaning is pretty much the same, as tow trucks move vehicles away from accident sites. Are there any more examples of this? JIP | Talk 20:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Examples of what? Of being able to concoct a non-existent word in a language and give it a remotely plausible meaning that is somewhere in the same region of semantic space as a similar-sounding word in another language? --ColinFine (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

You might be interested in our article on false cognates. - filelakeshoe 22:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I think "hinaus" would be an odd word to use in German for towing, unless you were towing a car out of a garage or, perhaps, off the road. Something based on the word "Weg" might make more sense for this hypothetical analytically-named tow truck. Hinwegauto? Anyway, as Filelakeshoe says, this is simply a false cognate, with wordplay not unlike a backronym. Smurrayinchester 00:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Two of the more famous examples (or at least included in several introductory linguistics books ca. the 1960s) are modern Greek μάτι and Indonesian mata (both meaning "eye"), and English "bad" and Persian bæd or bad with the same meaning... AnonMoos (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Anta is Kansai dialect Japanese for 'you', and also Egyptian dialect Arabic for the same word. 'Iraira' means 'angry' (or anxious) and in Latin they have 'ira' (where we get 'irate' from). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Not only "Egyptian" Arabic, but also Classical - as well as Modern Standard - Arabic. See here. 87.68.76.220 (talk) 11:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

March 5

Rusted automobile

I know there are phrases for old rusted but still functioning automobiles. I think one of the phrases refers to the bolts. Like maybe it's called a bunch of loose bolts or something? What colorful language exists as a reference to a truly ghastly automobile? I guess rust-box is the best I can come up with. I would assume the language and literature would be awash with references. Any suggestions? Bus stop (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Rustbucket is the first that comes to mind for me. --Onorem♠Dil 00:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

From literature, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul by Douglas Adams gives us "the alleged car", and Good Omens has "Dick Turpin" (because wherever the car goes it holds up traffic). We also have an utterly terrible article that gives another term for such a car: "shitbox". Smurrayinchester 00:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Rust-bucket is the reference that was escaping my mind. The others are funny too. Thanks everyone. Bus stop (talk) 00:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Or, this side of the pond at least, there's 'old banger'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The most classic term (in the U.S. at least) is "jalopy"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Also in the US are "beater" and the possibly offensive "ghetto cruiser". You know to expect such a car when the want ad simply lists the condition as "runs". StuRat (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The article Jalopy lists a few slang terms. The word "jalopy" itself is now considered archaic, "clunker" and "rust bucket" are somewhat more frequent. It mentions "hoopty"/"hooptie", which gives even more hits than "jalopy", although I personally don't recall ever hearing/seeing that one. The term I hear most often is "beater". --Itinerant1 (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

"Bucket of bolts". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Urdu help

For the title of the document "How May We Help You?" - http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf - What is the Urdu translation indicated on the title page?

And for http://www.houstonisd.org/Multilingual/Home/Parent%20Resources/Parent%20Guidebooks/ParentGuideUrdu.pdf what is the urdu name of the document title? (Something like "Parents Guide")

It is because ur:ہیوسٹن انڈیپنڈنٹ اسکول ڈسٹرکٹ was started in Urdu, and I need to make the external link labels in the Urdu language.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know Urdu, but since the Spanish, French, and Arabic all say "how may we help you", I assume the Urdu and the others are also just straight translations. It says "ﮨم آپ کی کیسے مددکر سکتے ﮨیی". Sorry, I can't help with "parent's guide" in the second document. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:21, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It is a straight translation. Thanks for your help with the first! WhisperToMe (talk) 17:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

diesel fuel combustion

I wanted to know if spark ignition is also possible for combustion of diesel. If so what are the design changes required and what will be the variations in performance when compared with the compression ignition if spark ignition is not possible in diesel engines what could be the reson for that — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stveetil (talk • contribs) 04:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if a spark would be hot enough. The article on Glowplug or Diesel engine might help you. RudolfRed (talk) 04:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Post the question on the Science Refdesk, it would get far better attention there than here on the Language Refdesk. Roger (talk) 13:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sortal classifiers and measure words

Can anyone think of any languages that have sortal classifiers but not measure words? (As opposed to, for example, English, which has measure words but not classifiers--except in some archaic constructions.) Thank you, 108.207.118.57 (talk) 05:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

By "measure words", do you mean "mensural numeral classifiers"? If so, it's hard for me to imagine a functional human language without these (the need to give names to quantities of uncountable nouns, and the urge to use these names in combination with numerals to measure quantities, seem essential and very hard to avoid.) Textbooks seem to concur: several sources state that "most or all" or "probably all" human languages have mensural classifiers.--Itinerant1 (talk) 07:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Restaurant: does it rhyme with ant, or with hunt, or with want, or with haunt, or with excellent/remnant?

Please indicate where you're from. Thanx. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In California, I don't think it rhymes with anything. I was trying to come up with two-word rhymes such as best hunt, but the problem is that in that phrase both syllables are stressed, whereas restaurant (which is usually a two-syllable word) is stressed only on the first syllable. --Trovatore (talk) 08:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I corrected my question according to your response. Anyways, I don't care about the stress, but rather about the kind of vowel of rant (in restaurant). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That's a schwa. --Trovatore (talk) 08:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

(and unfortunately for your correction to your question, it doesn't actually rhyme with hunt, because unstressed syllables don't rhyme with stressed ones. I think some consider the vowel in hunt to be a "stressed schwa", but to me a schwa is always unstressed, and it can be realized by the unstressed versions of several different vowels.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

So it does not rhyme with hunt, but rather with excellent (or remnant if you pronounce restaurant with two syllables only), doesn't it? Anyways, I corrected again my question, according to the new option. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't rhyme with excellent either, because to rhyme in English, the last stressed syllables of the two words must be the same except for initial consonants, and all syllables after that. That's my very rough formulation; I'm sure someone can make it more precise/accurate. Nor remnant either, because of the st/m conflict.

I wouldn't pick up from your writing, which is quite good, that you're not a native speaker, but from these comments I'm now suspecting it, am I correct? Most of English happens in the stressed syllables. The unstressed ones are generally kind of along for the ride. That's why, for example, meter in English poetry is based on a count of "feet", which generally each have one stressed syllable but may have multiple unstressed — this is quite different from, say, Italian poetry, which is often based on the eleven-syllable line, or Japanese poetry such as the haiku. --Trovatore (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As for your question about me, it seems like you haven't read the beginning of my thread above, about whether the word 13 is stressed on the first syllable (assuming you could remember my IP...). Anyways, I found it rather interesting to read what you've written about the difference between English, Italian and Japanese. I wasn't aware of it. In my native language (which you can identify by my IP) - the rhyme is always determined by the last syllable, whether stressed or not (i.e. what must be identical in rhymes - is the vowel and the consonants following it - in the last syllable). As for restaurant, again: I was more interested in identifying the kind of vowel in rant, so I was probably wrong in asking about the "rhyme" instead. BTW, I really can't find a word which (fully) rhymes with restaurant. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 09:37, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In the UK (London), to me it rhymes with want. Mikenorton (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In Australia, it varies a lot, perhaps depending on whether you're referring to McDonalds, in which case it rhymes with want, or a much more up-market establishment, when it has no n or t, and the vowel sound is more like the French, so, none of the above. HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Anyways, I was referring to those accents which pronounce the final t. The other accents you've indicated, probably pronounce it like rest a wrong, don't they? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, there's a sound the French use that I can't think of a rhyme for in English. HiLo48 (talk) 11:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you speak French? Anyways, the Frenchmen pronounce sant just as the English speakers in Canada pronounce song, and that vowel is identical to the last vowel in restaurant, assuming the final t is not pronounced. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I lived in English-speaking Canada for about a year, and I do not ever recall hearing anyone pronounce song in such a strange way. I think I might have remembered that. --Trovatore (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

So, do you claim they pronounce song as the Californians do? Let's put it this way: Can you find any GA syllable rhyming with the Canadian song? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not recall exactly how they said song, but I never noticed that it was any different from my pronunciation, [sɔːŋ]. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is a clue: They pronounce "song" as if it were spelled "sawng", but they pronounce "saw" as if it were spelled "sah"... 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, that might be true, I don't recall. Most of the differences between Toronto speech and GA are fairly subtle; I thought I had catalogued most of them but I could have missed that one. However "sawng" does not sound much like sant pronounced as though it were a French word. --Trovatore (talk) 21:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Which sawng are you talking about? The general American one, or the Canadian one? Again, don't forget that the Canadians (almost of them, except for those living in Regina), pronounce "saw" as if it were spelled sah.

(this phenonemon is very similar to that - of the pronunciation of the "a" in "aleph zero" - among the Hebrew speakers: Cantor pronounced the "a" in aleph-zero - as the Canadians pronounce the "a" in "saw", even though Cantor had a European accent of Hebrew - rather than a Middle-Eastern one, so he should have pronounced the "a" of "aleph-zero" - as the Americans pronounce the "a" of "saw"). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 22:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I really don't know of any difference between how Canadians and GA speakers would pronounce the nonexistent word sawng. Let me be more explicit about how it's different from French sant. If there were such a French word as sant perhaps there even is such a word, but I don't know it, it would not end in a consonant, but in a nasalized vowel. Song on the other hand, as pronounced in GA and I'm fairly sure also in Toronto, ends with a consonant, specifically a palatalized n. --Trovatore (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

As for "sans": admittedly, when I read your previous response, I was quite sure you'd mispelled the "sans" - by replacing the final "s" by a "t", but now I see it's me who made the original mistake - from which you just copied. Sorry.

As for the French accent and the English accent of Toronto: You're undoubtedly correct. By my comparing the French "sans" to the Canadian "song", I just tried to claim that the Canadians don't pronounce "song" as the Americans do, because the Canadians have an unrounded vowel - before the palatalized n, thus making their "song" - more similar to the French "sans" - than to the General American "song". However, you're definitely correct: It's not a perfect identity, because - as you indicated - one must also make a distinction, between a nasalized vowel - and a vowel followed by a palatalized n. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've only ever heard it pronounced "sawng". StuRat (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In USA, of course. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In Detroit, it rhymes with "haunt", or maybe "want", if you're being too lazy to say it properly. StuRat (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned in the other thread, I'm from Canada (southwestern Ontario specifically) and "restaurant" rhymes with both "haunt" and "want", which is interestingly not the case for StuRat even though that's just across the border! Adam Bishop (talk) 10:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I assume the Detroiters have the GA accent, so they (not like you) do make a distinction between cot and caught, even though they are just "across the border"... 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, someone from California sounds more like me than somebody from Windsor, Ontario, right across the border. The amount of time we each spend across the border is probably quite low, on average, especially now that we need a passport, limiting the chances for us to pick up each other's accents. I used to watch Canadian TV (TVO and CBC), but since the digital transition I can no longer get Canadian stations. I can still get Canadian radio stations, though, at least until that goes all digital. StuRat (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In the AmE Arlo Guthrie song, the last syllable of "restaurant" is rhymed with "want". Q: "Please indicate where you're from". A: I'm from Parts Unkown. Which apparently is a small town in central Wisconsin --Shirt58 (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The place - where you are from - does not matter, because you have said nothing about your own accent, but rather about the accent of Guthrie's, who's been born in Brooklyn NY. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm an English RP speaker, and for me it rhymes with haunt (but not want). -- Q Chris (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

BTW, do you pronounce the final t? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I haven't heard anyone in the UK not pronouncing the final 't'. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In London, "t"s are dropped all over the place. I don't pronounce the final "t" but I like to think that it's an approximation of the French pronunciation. Alansplodge (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

For me (USA South), the last syllable (when the 't' is pronounced) rhymes with "wont". Falconus^{p t c} 12:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, that is "wont" as in "Yesterday they were in the restaurant as is their wont", not "they won't be in the restaurant". Falconus^{p t c} 12:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

My big fat Collins French College Dictionary gives the IPA for the French pronunciation as ʀɛs.tɔʁɑ̃ and the English as rɛstərɔŋ, however our article Restaurant differs on both. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I already mentioned Collins (regarding the RP accent) in my previous thread, yesterday (4 May) at 21:45, and I also referred to the French pronunciation, in the current thread, today, at 11:15. See also Dbfirs' comment (about the French pronunciation), in the previous thread, yesterday, at 22:28. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

@Falconus, why didn't you say "want" (which I have already mentioned in the title of this thread)? If you don't pronounce "wont" like "won't", then: don't you pronounce it like "want"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I do not pronounce it anything like "want" or "won't". I could also have said "font", because that rhymes too for me with wont and restaurant. I pronounce "wont" similarly to the US recording here but "want" rhymes with "punt". Falconus^{p t c} 13:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I thought your "want" rhymed with "font", as it does in General American accent. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Up here in Central New York, and similar to Arlo Guthrie and most of the other media I am exposed to, restaurant, want, wont, haunt, and Vermont all rhyme. —Akrabbim^talk 13:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you make a distinction between "cot" and "caught"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Nope. Now that I think of it (and lining up with this map), my dialect more reflects being born in Vermont and living out most of my childhood in the Adirondacks, away from the CNY accent which pronounces 'cot' a little more nasally than 'caught'. —Akrabbim^talk 14:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

So, your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your want, which is identical to the want of GA accent (that does make a distinction between cot and caught). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I pronounce the last syllable of the three syllable word the same way I pronounce the term for my mother's sister, aunt. A recently taken online survey told me I had a Philadelphia accent, however those people rhyme the relative with an insect. I picked up the alternate when I lived in New England. I've also lived in the upper midwest and now live in the mid-Atlantic south, so all bets are off. --LarryMac | Talk 13:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you pronounce the vowel in "aunt" as you pronounce the vowel in "haunt"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I and most of my peers rhyme "aunt" with "ant", and make fun of anybody who rhymes it with "haunt". —Akrabbim^talk 14:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To sum up: your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your want, which is identical to the want of GA accent (that does make a distinction between cot and caught). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, 'aunt' and 'haunt' have completely different vowel sounds for me. My pronunciations seem to be in-line with those of Falconus, above. --LarryMac | Talk 14:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To sum up: your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your font, which is identical to the font of GA accent (in which aunt and haunt rhyme, and in which want and font rhyme). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've lived in various places around the U.S., but I grew up on Long Island (New York City suburbs), and I think that my pronunciation of restaurant is typical for that region. The last syllable, [ɑ~ʔ], rhymes with want. (The tilde in my IPA transcription is supposed to be be over the vowel, indicating a nasal vowel. I suspect that people are now going to say that they don't have a nasal vowel or glottal stop, that they distinctly pronounce the /n/ and the /t/ as consonants, but I doubt that this is true in rapid, unselfconscious speech for most Americans.) Marco polo (talk) 14:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm getting worried now. I live in the English Midlands and restaurant rhymes with "aren't". I've never heard anyone pronounce it any other way. "Aunt" also rhymes with "aren't", unless I'm trying to fit in with my Yorkshire friends and family, in which case "aunt" rhymes with "ant". "Haunt" rhymes with "gaunt" and very little else. "Font" rhymes with "want". I'm starting to think the English Midlands are totally different to everywhere else! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I think font rhymes with want in most versions of English. What is different is that, in England these vowel sounds are typically rounded ([ɒ]), whereas in most of North America they are not ([ɑ̟]). The North American vowel (with a few regional exceptions) is the vowel in father. This is the vowel that most people in the New York City area use for the last vowel in restaurant. Marco polo (talk) 20:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, really, I doubt that. I think most of General American pronounces it ['rɛst.rənt], which certainly does not rhyme with want. --Trovatore (talk) 08:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

@Trovatore: Please notice that you're the only person here who claims that - the rant of restaurant - rhymes with the rant of migrant, while user:Q Chris (being a Brit) and user:StuRat (being a Detroiter) are the only ones here who claim that the rant of restaurant rhymes with haunt, whereas user:TammyMoet (being a Brit) is the only one here who claims that the rant of restaurant rhymes with ahnt (which doesn't rhyme with font in the British accent). All of the other participants here, whether Britishers, Australians, South Africans, Canadians or Americans (incl. Arlo Guthrie), pronounce the rant of rastaurant as a rhyme of font (unless the final t is not pronounced, in which case the rant of restaurant rhymes with wrong). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

That is surprising. However not that many Americans have contributed, and as for Guthrie, he has a strong accent and it was a performance. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a General American speaker (grew up in PA, studied in CA, worked in IN and IL), and I don't think I have ever heard any General American speaker pronounce "resaurant" with a reduced vowel. I've only heard it rhymed with "want", with the vowel the same as in "father". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've counted five Americans here, whose rant (of "restaurant") rhymes with font: user:Falconus, user:Akrabbim, user:LarryMac, user:Marco Polo, and finally: user:Dominus Vobisdu (Note also that user:StuRat, being a Detroiter, pronounces the rant to rhyme with haunt, rather than with the rant of "migrant"). Note also that user:Dominus Vobisdu asserts that they studied in CA, and that they don't think they "have ever heard any General American speaker pronounce resaurant with a reduced vowel". 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But there is still a difference between both of you, even when leaving aside the rhotic issue: TammyMoet makes a distinction between the following four vowels: "ant", "haunt", "want", "aunt" (unless TammyMoet is trying to fit in with their Yorkshire friends and family); While Marco Polo - makes a distinction between the first three vowels only ("ant", "haunt", "want"), the vowel of "aunt" being either like that of "want" or like that of "ant").77.127.60.246 (talk) 20:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, and idiosyncratically, I do have the rounded [ɒ] vowel for some words, aunt being one of them, most of the time. (When I am talking to family from New York, I often pronounce aunt like ant as I did when I was a child.) This is because my pronunciation has been influenced by a couple of decades of living in the Boston area. (See Boston accent.) For some words, I seem to have picked up the rounded vowel. For some reason, want and restaurant retain their (unrounded) New York pronunciation for me. Marco polo (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you use the rounded vowel for "aunt"? I'm asking, because you're now claiming: "restaurant retains its (unrounded) New York pronunciation for me", whereas here - you had claimed (a claim you finally deleted) that: "aunt has come to rhyme with restaurant for me after many years in New England". That's why I thought you made a distinction between three vowels only: "ant", "haunt", "want". However, since you decided to take your words back (by saying now: "I do have the rounded [ɒ] vowel for some words, aunt being one of them, most of the time"), so I, too, am taking back my words about the number of vowels between which you make a distinction. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess I am a little confused, as a result of the different prevailing practices in the place where I grew up and my longtime adult home. I think I switch back and forth on that vowel for these words, probably mostly depending on whom I'm talking to. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Am I speaking now with Marco polo? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

As a South African English speaker my pronunciaion closely follows that of TammyMoet except that the only distinction between "aren't" and "aunt" is the (barely perceptible) "r" - the vowel in both words is the "father" one. Roger (talk) 08:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Is the South African accent rhotic? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Mother tongue SA English is non-rhotic, thus the barely perceptible difference between "aren't" and "aunt". Depending on their first language, some second language speakers are rhotic. (Now that I'm sitting here saying "aren't aunt aren't aunt" over and over the difference has totally disappeared, so maybe it isn't really there.) Roger (talk) 10:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as I suspected. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm from Quebec, and like Adam Bishop, I rhyme restaurant with both want and haunt. I suspect this will be the case for the vast majority of English Canadians who are not from Newfoundland. An interesting question would be whether people say restaront or restront - you'll hear me saying both. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 04:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

It's normally two syllables, "rest-ront", in South African English. Roger (talk) 08:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Additional data points: I am from the south-east of England, where I've lived all my life. I have something like a traditional 'BBC English' accent. I speak French as my second language. To me:

• 'Restaurant' rhymes with both 'want' and 'font', and I regard 'font' as the word there that's spelled most phonetically.
• 'Restaurant' is three syllables; the middle vowel is a schwa.
• Sometimes, I don't prounounce the terminal 't' of 'restaurant' if another consonant follows. In French, that would be standard.
• 'Aunt' and 'aren't' are homophones, unless I emphasise the latter, in which case the 'r' is enunciated. They rhyme with 'shan't', 'slant', and 'can't'.
• 'Ant' rhymes with 'cant'.
• 'Haunt' rhymes only with 'gaunt', as noted above.
• I pronounce 'rant' to rhyme with 'ant'; my partner, with an otherwise similar accent, pronounces it to rhyme with 'aunt'.
• 'Remnant' and 'excellent' do not rhyme. 'Remant' has a schwa for its second vowel, and thus rhymes with 'pendant' and 'brilliant'. 'Excellent' rhymes with 'dent' and 'meant'.
• 'Won't' and 'don't' rhyme with each other. 'Wont' is probably meant to rhyme with 'won't', but it's used so rarely, many people pronounce it identically to 'want' when they use it at all.
• 'Hunt' rhymes with 'punt', and none of the above.

AlexTiefling (talk) 10:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I suspect I didn't understand well your comment about Excellent. Please tell me how many syllables this word has, and how you pronounce every syllable. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I just mean that you gave 'remnant/excellent' as one option to begin with, and to me, those words have different endings to each other. As for restaurant: the first syllable is just as the word 'rest'; the second syllable (in English) is just the [schwa] sound, which might be written "uh" for rhotic speakers and "er" for non-rhotic speakers; and the third rhymes with either 'font' or 'gone', depending on whether or not the terminal 't' is pronounced. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Note that now I was asking about excellent (rather than about restaurant, for which I have already received a detailed answer). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Doh. OK, I pronounce 'excellent' Eck-sell-ent - eck as in neck, sell as the verb, ent as in dent. Primary emphasis on the first syllable, secondary emphasis on the last. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I must admit you're surprising me (I suspected you were going to, and that's why I asked you for a further clarification about "excellent"): Are you sure your pronunciation of "excellent" (in which you pronounce the last syllable to rhyme with cent) is a "traditional 'BBC English' accent" - as you've called it? I'm asking, because - as far as I'm familiar with that word (and I've heard it - maybe a billion of times, in all possible varieties), its final syllable has always had a schwa, and this is also what all the dictionaries claim, incl. the best British ones, don't they? Anyways, do you know of any other word, whose first syllable is stressed, and whose last syllable is an "ent" - which you pronounce with the "e" of "cent" - rather than with a schwa? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't pretend to have a perfect BBC accent. I may have been unduly influenced by Wayne's World, and by W S Gilbert, who rhymes 'excellent' with 'descent' in The Pirates of Penzance. Another example would be 'merriment'. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Was the first syllable of descent - in W S Gilbert's pronunciation - stressed? As for the last syllable of merriment - which I pronounce with a schwa only, did you mean that W S Gilbert pronounced it: meant, although the first syllable is stressed? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In "Hail Poetry", from Pirates, Gilbert ends one line with 'family descent', stressing the 'ly' of 'family' unnaturally strongly, leaving 'descent' stressed normally. The following line ends 'excellent', pronounced as I have described above, to rhyme. I only meant that 'merriment' was another word with first-syllable stress and -ent ending to rhyme with 'cent'. However, there is a Gilbert example, from "My Object All Sublime", in The Mikado: "And make each prisoner pent/ Unwillingly represent/ A source of innocent merriment/ Of innocent merriment." The first syllable of 'merriment' carries the principal stress, the last the secondary, and all three lines rhyme. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for these quotations. As to descent, probably it has nothing to do with my original question about the way you pronounce excellent, because he stressed descent on the last syllable only, as you admit. As far as excellent and merriment are concerned, it seems he (primarily) stressed them on their last syllable only, as long as we consider his rhymes you presented. Anyway, maybe you, too, stress excellent on its last syllable only (or have your primary stress on the last syllable). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you actually find and listen to the songs in question. Gilbert certainly does not stress only the final syllables of these words. In Pirates (and it occurs to me that it's not in "Hail Poetry" at all, but in the Act 2 introduction), the stress is clearly mostly on the 'ex' and somewhat on the 'ent'. Similarly in Mikado, there's a strong beat providing emphasis on the 'in' of innocent and the 'merr-' of 'merriment', with a secondary stress on '-ment' the second time round. A further example (also Gilbert): in Iolanthe, the Lord Chancellor sings 'The law is the true embodiment/ Of everything that's excellent/ And I, my Lords, embody the law.' Again, the main stresses are on the 'bod' of 'embodiment' and 'ex' of 'excellent', with secondary stress on the endings. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I accept your testimony. Anyways, this is not the common pronunciation of excellent (at least nowadays), and that's why I was so surprised when I read your original comment against the connection between remnant and excellent. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

For a three-syllable pronunciation of "excellent" which approximates to the way I pronounce it, see the theme tune from Wayne's World! --TammyMoet (talk) 11:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you didn't provide a direct link for the tune. Anyways, would you agree with user:AlexTiefling, that "excellent rhymes with dent and meant"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think I was allowed to post a YouTube link for copyright reasons here. Googling "Wayne's World theme tune" fetches it up for me. And yes, it does. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, thank you. I've just listened to it, and you're right. However, it seems the tune forces them to pronounce the lent with an open vowel, but maybe I'm wrong. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

'Haunt' rhymes only with 'gaunt', as noted above. - what about flaunt, jaunt, taunt and vaunt?

'Remnant', 'pendant' and 'brilliant' are not anywhere near rhymes of each other. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 12:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

They are for me. 86.176.212.232 (talk) 12:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Jack - you're right about rhymes for 'haunt'. 'Avaunt', too. And for me, the last vowel in 'remnant', 'pendant' and 'brilliant' is an unstressed a like the one in 'tap', so they all rhyme. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ditto. —Akrabbim^talk 16:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But surely the rhyme depends on more than the final unstressed syllable (or do you pronounce these words rem-NANT, pen-DANT and brill-YANT?). It's about whether -EMnant, -ENDant and -ILLyant are rhymes of each other, and for me that is surely NO. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sure, but the answer to that question is so obviously "no" that it never occurred to me that that could be what was meant. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 02:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC) (86.176.212.232 above)

Then AlexTiefling was using the word "rhyme" is a very loose sense. Just as long as I know. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

To the OP: I've noticed that you're going back and amending your own responses quite a while after making them. This may make the thread of the discussion hard to follow. You also seem to be trying to lead us into proving some point or other, with your claims about what may or may not be the 'common pronunciation' of particular words. In some cases, including mine, you've strongly suggested that you (whom I've presumably never met) may know better than I do how I pronounce things. I've got to ask: what's the point? Where are you going with all this? AlexTiefling (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello Alex, how are you?

As for your comments/questions:

1. Usually, after I submit my responses, I review them again, to make sure I haven't made mistakes - in spelling, style, and likewise (very seldom, the error I find is reflected by having to add marginal additions that are not going to change the whole idea). When I find errors, I try to fix them as soon as possible, in order to avoid edit conflicts, but I don't always succeed, so if my behavior (in fixing my own errors) has bothered you - I apologize; Next time, I'll try - to review my responses - before submitting them, rather than afterwards. Would you forgive me?

2. I don't think I know anything better than you, or than anybody else: I've only claimed that your claim about excellent - "surprised" me, but this doesn't mean that you are wrong or that I'm right: Maybe the other way around. Notice that, when I think that something is so and so, I try to be careful with my thoughts - by expressing them by: "it seems to be so and so", or "maybe it's so and so", and when I'm corrected by clear proofs or clear testimonies, I declare loud and clear: "I accept your testimony", and likewise. The only exception is, when I express my opinion about issues of what's more "common" in the world (and the like), because that's a purely "scientific" issue - which can be simply measured: e.g. with regard to the more common pronunciation of excellent, in which case I don't say "it seems to be so and so", but rather "it is so and so": How do I know whether it's really so and so? By opening dictionaries, listening to people, counting how many people pronounce excellent this way or that way, and likewise, as every scientist should do. However, even in such "scientific" issues, in which I say "it is so and so" (rather than: "it seems to be so and so"), you shouldn't conclude that I'm sure I'm right: Be sure, that if you provide any strong proof or any strong testimony against my findings, I won't hesitate to accept the proof/testimony, or to admit I've been wrong.

3. My only purpose - in this thread - is to know how the word restaurant is pronounced by the native English speakers. That said, I afford to express my feelings (as a surprise, and the like), or my thought, just by the way, when I come across surprising arguments which I can claim something about.

77.127.60.246 (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

March 6

Cheese

How many etymologically distinct roots for the concept of cheese exist in Indo-European languages? 71.223.2.17 (talk) 00:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's three to start with:

• English "cheese", German "Käse", Latin "caseus", Spanish "queso", Proto-Indo-European "kwat-" (to ferment, become sour; also source of Russian "kvass"=a fermented drink)[2]
• French "fromage", Vulgar Latin "formaticus", from Latin "forma" (=form, shape) PIE "dher" (to hold)[3][4]
• Polish "ser", Czech "sýr", Lithuanian, "suris", PIE "suro-" (cheese)[5]

--Colapeninsula (talk) 09:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I haven't an authoritative answer, but looking at wikt:cheese I can find between five and seven:

• Cheese (Eng), Käse (Ger), queso (Span), caws (Welsh) - West Germanic, Celtic, Iberian Romance, from Latin "caseus"
• Fromage (Fr), Formaggio (It), other cisalpine Romance - from Latin "formaticum", lit. "formed" (in a mould)
• Ost (Dan, Sw, Norw), Ostur (Icel)
• Τυρί (tiri - Greek)
• Сыр (syr - Russian), Ser (Polish), suris (Lith) - Slavonic and Baltic. I guess this is actually from the Greek, but I haven't researched this
• पनीर (Hindi), پنیر (Farsi), պանիր (Armenian) - all "panir": throughout Asian IE languages
• djathë (Albanian) - I suspect this is actually from 'caseus' again, but I haven't investigated.

--ColinFine (talk) 09:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Romanian has brânză, of unknown etymology, presumed Dacian. 92.80.24.250 (talk) 16:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The North Germanic Ost/Ostur/etc, from Old Norse "justaz", apparently have another Latin cognate, "ius" (gravy, broth, sauce -> English "juice") but I don't know the PIE root (N.B. this is different from ius=justice, law). from PIE *i̯uHs- "liquid produce (like soup or gruel)"[6].

The PIE root *peiƏ = fat seems to give paneer (and various Baltic words for milk), although some people claim paneer is from a Turkic word.[7] --Colapeninsula (talk) 18:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The Greek seems to be from a PIE root tuHri = "cheese"[8] - Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction By Robert S. P. Beekes, Michiel de Vaan p 37 --Colapeninsula (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

No etymology for the Albanian "djathë" but it could easily be from the Latin, as this blog and ColinFine suggest, but Greek turos is from teu- "to swell", which is also the root of "butter"[9][10][11]

That gives six PIE roots

• "caseus" kuat(h)- = to ferment, become sour
• "fromage" 2. dher-, dherə- = to hold, support
• "ser" sū-ro-, sou-ro- = sour, bitter, salty; cheese
• "ost" 1. ieu- = to mix, mingle (of meal preparation)
• "paneer" pei(ə)-, pī̆- = fat; milk
• "Τυρί" tēu-, təu-, teu̯ə-, tu̯ō-, tū̆- = to swell

List of roots --Colapeninsula (talk) 22:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

We still need a root for the Romanian brânză, even if it comes from Dacian - Dacian was Indo-European too... Maybe bhren- or bhrendh- (to bulge, to swell, cf. the root for the Greek)? 92.80.24.250 (talk) 23:38, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

See Bryndza#Etymology and wikt:brânză. The Wiktionary entry discusses the etymology citing DEX online: brânză as a reference, but that reference itself says "etimologie necunoscută" (unknown etymology). --Theurgist (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

what happen if the food chain get broken

what happen if the food chain get broken — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.213.202.23 (talk) 01:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Somebody does not eat. Looie496 (talk) 02:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The Science Desk would be the proper place to ask this. But, most food chains aren't dependent on any one species. So, if one species goes extinct, the animals above it on the food chain switch to other prey, and the plants or animals below it on the food chain are eaten by other animals. There are cases where a predator is dependent on a single prey, though, in which case, if that prey goes extinct, they either need to adapt in a hurry or they go extinct, too. For the reverse case, where a plant or animal loses it's last predator, you could expect a population spike, until they use up some critical resource, like food, and then the population will collapse, but not all the way to extinction. StuRat (talk) 03:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Danish language study

What universities in North America offer major Danish language programs (at least at the level of a BA)? 96.46.204.126 (talk) 03:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi, there are a number. They are usually brought under the heading of "Scandinavian Studies" or, more broadly, "Germanic Studies".

• Department of Germanic Studies in The College of Liberal Arts at UT Austin
• Department of Scandinavian Studies The University of Wisconsin-Madison
• University of Washington Scandinavian Studies
• Degree Programs in Scandinavian - UCLA
• Department of Scandinavian - UC Berkeley
• Scandinavian Studies at Harvard

--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I hadn't spotted Harvard. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 05:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Annemasse

How to pronounce the name of this SwissFrench town? The Annemasse page lacks this information. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've always heard it pronounced like the French name "Anne" and the French word "masse" put together: IPA: [an.mas] (and it's not a Swiss town :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 10:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Oops! <blush> Quite right - redacted, with thanks! -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

spelling endings

How do yoou call those words which last syllable end with same letters, like: tale male female. NOTE that all of them end on "le". Thank you for your patience and advice. Ken Ambros 201-845-4754 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.79.160 (talk) 12:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Rhymes if they end in the same sounds, eye rhymes if they're pronounced differently... AnonMoos (talk) 13:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

received pronunciation: dropping the H

Hello. I was wondering why the H is not pronounced in words like hour and honour (there was a third example which I've subsequently forgotten) even if one speaks 'properly' (ie in received pronunciation). Thanks.13:52, 6 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.248.120 (talk)

My guess is that they were borrowed from French, at a time when French speakers already no longer pronounced the h, even though the letter was retained in spelling. --Terfili (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

'Honest' must be the third example AlexTiefling (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

This blog post from Oxford dictionaries might be helpful, along with this one. In general, the h-less pronunciation was considered more proper than the spelling pronunciation, not just for hour and honour but from lots of words from French, such as horrible, hotel, historic etc, since this was seen as the more educated way of pronouncing them. During the 20th century, most of these words gained their aitches, but a handful didn't. (heir is another word with a silent h, and herb has a silent h in America). Received Pronunciation is not necessarily the "proper" pronunciation, it's simply the one that was associated with the educated classes in 19th and 20th Century England. It has plenty of idiosyncracies that speakers of other accents might consider lazy or bizarre (for instance, the letter "R" is rarely pronounced and the accent includes a number of words traditionally pronounced counterintuitively: often as "orphan", housewife as "huzzif", forehead as "forrid" etc. Just because it's RP doesn't mean it has to make sense.) Smurrayinchester 16:25, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Purely for interest, "housewife" pronounced "huzzif" was (and I presume still is) the name used in the British Army for a soldier's sewing kit (whose use was/is a necessary skill for repairing items of uniform and kit). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.66.254 (talk) 02:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

You can buy one here. Alansplodge (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, yes, but a reproduction 18th-century one, probably a bit different from the one my Dad was issued with! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.188 (talk) 12:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

What? The British Army getting modern equipment? What can they be thinking? Here's the latest issue and here's one in the Imperial War Museum (my Dad had one too!). Alansplodge (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

rearrange these words to form a meaningful sentence

grew out of/interprets/indian dance/nature/worship/legends that - - - - please suggest a possible answer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daredid (talk • contribs) 18:42, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Indian dance interprets legends that grew out of nature worship. Do I get a prize, or have I just done some of your homework? If so, you're only harming yourself by cheating. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.254 (talk) 18:56, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Indian: dance! Legends? That, Nature interprets, worship grew out of.

--80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not one sentence, though... I'll try more a bit laterr :)

Interprets worship legends that Indian dance grew out of nature. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Nature worship grew out of legends that Indian dance interprets. Tinfoilcat (talk) 08:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Roger (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

March 7

relative pronouns

anybody please help me to find out if this sentence is wrong and why

...Sam has created a well-known series "CSI" which main characters are brilliant and good-looking detectives.

and if this sentence is correct?

...Sam has created a well-known series "CSI" whose main characters are brilliant and good-looking detectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.207.196.73 (talk) 02:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The first is definitely wrong (would have to be "the main characters of which"). The second is OK, though some stylists dislike "whose" referring back to an inanimate... AnonMoos (talk) 03:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

You also need commas before and after the word CSI. American style is to put the second comma between the letter 'I' and the right quotation mark. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

And CSI should be in italics, not quotation marks. --Viennese Waltz 08:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd also replace "brilliant and good-looking" with "brilliant, good-looking", which makes it clear that each detective has both qualities, instead of some being brilliant and others being good-looking. The "has" also seems extraneous. And perhaps you should say "TV series" to differentiate from a series of movies, and "police detectives", to make it clear you aren't talking about private detectives. StuRat (talk) 08:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Combining my suggestions with those above, I get:

...Sam created a well-known TV series, CSI, whose main characters are brilliant, good-looking police detectives.

StuRat (talk) 08:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

This may be a comment too far, but if we're talking about the actual CSI TV series, that was actually created by someone called Anthony Zuiker, not someone called Sam. --Viennese Waltz 09:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Also "brilliant, good-looking police detectives" Adam Bishop (talk) 09:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Another option is

...Sam created a well-known TV series, CSI, the main characters of which are brilliant, good-looking police detectives.

—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 18:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and the reason the first sentence is wrong is that the phrase "which main characters" would have to have a referent earlier in the sentence, and the only possible candidate to serve in that role is "TV series." Because a TV series is not main characters, the two halves of the putative sentence mismatch, so the result is syntactically invalid. Compare to the much more (syntactically) acceptable "The Yankees field a starting line-up, which players are nearly all superstars."—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 18:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Not every style guide mandates italics for TV show titles. Not all forms of written communication can support italics. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Japanese Farting Competition 1812

see He-gassen. Whats does it say on the last segment of the scroll? -- Cherubino (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's the drawer's notes and it says "it's a copy and the drawer added some". But the third year of 弘化/Kōka is 1846, not 1812. Oda Mari (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

original way to separate the men from the boys

I know it's used frequently / metaphorically (/ironically), but what is the original way or first usage of separating the men from the boys, or when did this gain popularity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.254.208 (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean "You can tell the men from the boys by the size of their toys ?" StuRat (talk) 19:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Or perhaps you mean a particular religious or cultural practice, like a Bar Mitzvah ? StuRat (talk) 19:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The OP would like, I infer, the origin and history of the phrase "[this will] separate the mens from the boys". Is there a regional disparairty in its usage? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

This page, which seems to be reproducing the entry in the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, dates the idiom to "c. 1930". Deor (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The expression is common among Americans, especially Americans of a certain generation (say, born before 1945). It usually refers to a task that requires considerable skill, confidence, or, less often, physical strength. It's the sort of thing my father (b. 1935) is likely to say, but people my age (b. early 60s) or younger are less likely to say, or are likely to say only ironically. I don't know how common the expression is outside the United States. Marco polo (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

See "the men from the boys" at Google Ngram Viewer.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

"The first time I felt like an adult was when I was first charged as an adult." - One of the bullies on The Simpsons. StuRat (talk) 22:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The phrase is in common use in the UK; does it come from "sort the sheep from the goats", which has a similar meaning? Alansplodge (talk) 22:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Or separating the wheat from the chaff? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Middle English: "seiden"

What is today's word for "seiden". I see it here in Wycliffe's Bible Acts 1:10 - And whanne thei biheelden hym goynge in to heuene, lo! `twei men stoden bisidis hem in white clothing, and seiden, How might one say this sentence in today's English?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's the third person plural of the past tense of "to say": "(they) said". Iblardi (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you put this verse into today's English?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21::40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

11. Angr (talk) 22:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

"And when they beheld him going into heaven, lo! two men stood beside them in white clothing, and said"; from http://www.biblestudytools.com/wyc/acts/1-10.html. Iblardi (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

(EC)"and seiden," would be "and said," because the next verse starts '“Men of Galilee, what stand ye beholding into heaven?"' Alansplodge (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I hope this doesn't sound rude, but Doug, surely you know there are modern English translations of the Bible? If you don't have a an actual Bible handy, it's all online. Obviously you're reading Wycliffe's translation on Wikisource, you linked to it in a question last week. The King James and American Standard Versions are also on Wikisource, and if you enter any chapter and verse into Google, it will give you dozens of websites with dozens of other versions. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Adam for the comment. I am interested in just the Wycliffe Bible and NOT the other "translations" as I believe there is something lost between Wycliffe's Bible and modern versions. I do like the KJV and think there is little lost between Wycliffe and KJV. However after KJV I think there is much lost - so I go back to the original source of Wycliffe. Some of the Medieval English and Middle English words confuse me. For example is "seiden" which I now realize is like today's "said". I should have known as I have heard teenagers say something like: "I heard him saiden to others that he doesn't like history." Thanks again Adam for taking note in what I am doing.--Douglas Coldwell (talk) 14:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the majority opinion is that if you're looking for an accurate translation, go for something more modern. If you're looking for some historical context to the early Reformation, or a colourful and idiosyncratic piece of Middle English, then Wycliffe's your man. Alansplodge (talk) 15:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Wycliffe and his associates did their best with what was available to them, but their translation is based almost solely on the Latin Vulgate, whereas during the last 400+ years of Bible translation into English it has been considered greatly preferable to go back to the earliest available forms of the Biblical texts in their original languages (Hebrew and Greek). AnonMoos (talk) 15:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

If you're looking for comparison texts, the Challoner Douay-Rheims Bible or the Confraternity Bible would also be expected to parallel Wycliffe closely, as they are based on the Vulgate. I'm not sure how close Knox's Translation would be for your purposes, as it is also informed by the Hebrew and Greek in places. If you look here, you can see the Vulgate text parallel with the Douay-Rheims and KJV, which might be interesting to look at with your Wycliffe. 86.164.69.124 (talk) 18:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciated the great sources and areas where y'all have pointed me to. The earliest source I can find is Wycliffe for the New Testament. IF (big "if") there are earlier sources (i.e. Hebrew, Greek), could someone tell me where it is? Keep in mind I am looking for earlier sources to the New Testamant than Wycliffe's Bible. Not just any Greek or Hebrew, but New Testament versions in any language (i.e. Latin) written PRIOR to the fourteenth century.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 20:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Leaping back to 550, this appears to be a transcription of the Codex Laudianus (parallel Greek and Latin texts). The earliest text of Acts 1 attested in our List of New Testament papyri is in Papyrus 45, c. 250. Shimgray | talk | 20:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the references and sources. That will give me something to study for awhile.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:17, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

My apologies - I got the papyrus number wrong there! P45 only starts at Acts 4; Papyrus 56 is the first papyrus with Acts 1, according to our list, c. 500. I won't say that's the earliest - it'd probably be worth checking a book specifically discussing Acts, which will probably have a quick summary of manuscript dates in it. Shimgray | talk | 22:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

And the Latin Vulgate itself is late 4th century, and it's quite interesting because we aren't completely sure what Hebrew and Greek manuscripts Jerome was looking at in making this translation. As I said, you can read the Vulgate (both Testaments) at the external link I provided, alongside the KJV and Douay-Rheims translations into English. If you're looking for old manuscripts, rather than old translations passed on by copying, we have an almost complete Vulgate New Testament from the mid 6th century in the Codex Fuldensis, although the Gospels are replaced with the Diatessaron.

Oh, and there were earlier Latin translations, although I think the earliest manuscripts we have for them are only 4th century: List of New Testament Latin manuscripts, Old Latin Bible. 86.164.69.124 (talk) 02:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Bullying

We all think we know what bullying is. But is there an exact definition? the article is not clear.--92.28.67.225 (talk) 21:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

For a definition, it is best to look in a dictionary rather than an encyclopedia. Try this.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 21:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The UK charity Childline has a page; What is bullying?. In my 1960s and 70s schooldays, a lot of actions that would clearly be described as bullying today would have come under the heading of "character building". Alansplodge (talk) 22:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a bully as "a tyrannical coward who makes himself a terror to the weak." The definitions for the verb "to bully" is based on that, and "bullying" is "The action of the verb to bully : overbearing insolence; personal intimidation; petty tyranny. Often used with reference to schoolboy life." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

That word has an interesting history, of both positive and negative connotations.[12] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Translation

How would I say "Fuck off you supercillious twat" in Welsh?--92.28.67.225 (talk) 21:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I direct you to How do I swear in Welsh? from which you should be able to find something along the right lines. This blog has a more restricted vocabulary, but has an easy pronunciation guide. I couldn't find an online translator that could cope with "supercillious", but the University of Wales translates "haughty" (just about the same thing in my book) as 1. penuchel adj. trahaus adj. ucheldrem adj. Note that adjectives go after the noun in Welsh, so you'd have to say "twat supercillious". Alansplodge (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

At the risk of appearing supercilious could I mention that there is only one 'l'. Richard Avery (talk) 11:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes. Well spotted. Alansplodge (talk) 13:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Note that the editor is currently on a 2-day vacation, and also geolocates to LC's territory. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"LC" meaning? Alansplodge (talk) 13:06, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The supercilious troll Lightcurrent. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:25, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Aha! I knew it couldn't be Lactation consultant ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

March 8

Apple vs. potato in French

In a French-language restaurant menu, how would fried potatoes and fried apples be differentiated? "Pommes frites" would usually refer to fried potatoes, even though "pomme" is the French word for apple. 69.62.243.126 (talk) 00:32, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

According to Google Translate: "Fried potatoes" would be pommes de terre sautées. "Fried apples" would be pommes frites. "French fries" would be pommes de terre frites, or just plain frites. However, going from French to English, pommes frites is also labeled "French fries". A French reader might be able to tell us the real story. The thing is, pomme is "apple", and pomme de terre is "apple of the earth", i.e. "potato". Raw potatoes and raw apples have a pretty similar texture, of course. Where the term "pomme" itself comes from, its Latin form is pomum,[13] and has something to do with roundness or "knobiness", hence it's cognate with the "pommel" of a saddle. In Spanish, that word's descendant pomo is used to mean a "knob", while manzana is the word for "apple", also based on some Latin term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:14, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"Pommes frites" refers to "French fries". On a French menu to refer to "fried apples", depending on how they are cooked, one could say "Pommes (fruits) frites" (difficult to pronounce), "Frites de pommes (fruits)" or "Pommes (fruits) sautées". I think we can omit the parenthesis and we can also use an hyphen: "pommes-fruits". — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen "pommes-fruits" written anywhere. First of all, we don't usually fry apples, we may bake them, but we won't fry them, so you can usually assume that "pommes-frites" is short for "pommes de terre frites". On a menu, you know if it is about potatoes or apples simply because apples would be in the dessert sections. If it is still ambiguous, then the brackets "(fruit)" could be used, but I have never actually seen this on any menu, I guess I was never in a situation where it was ambiguous. --Lgriot (talk) 09:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's a French recipe for Pommes sautées au beurre (apples fried in butter), which obviously refers to the fruit. Google will show there are many similar recipes. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC) --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"had have"

I've only recently started to notice that almost everyone seems to say "If I'd have done this...", "If he'd have done that...", and so on, rather than, as I would consider correct, "If I'd done this..." and "If he'd done that...". Am I right that these "'d have" forms are grammatically incorrect? When and how did this mistake begin, and why has it become so common? Is it more prevalent in certain regions? I'm from the UK, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it from speakers of various nationalities. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 01:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not a mistake. It's perfectly standard English everywhere. The 'd is a contraction of "would", not "had". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

(ec) The fact you're from the UK explains your surprise. When our friends in the UK say: "If I had done", the Americans may say: "If I would have done"; Whereas "I would" is shortended by "I'd". To sum up: The britishers don't accept the form: "if I would", while the Americans do. Hope this helps. 84.229.229.186 (talk) 02:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it depends. If I would have is substandard for a simple counterfactual if I had, in the US as well as (presumably) in the UK. However it may have acceptable US usages when there's a shade of meaning along the lines of if I had desired to or if I had chosen to. Whether such usages are ever considered standard in the UK, I don't know. --Trovatore (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

While you are referring to the context - and are claiming that "if I would" may be substandard - or standard - in the US (in a way depending on the context), I am referring to the very grammatical form "If I would" - and am claiming that this form is never acceptable in the UK. To sum up, my own rest a wrong is still open, and would have never been similar to migrant, unless I had lived in CA. 84.229.229.186 (talk) 02:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

What, not in any context? How about Sir, if you would please come with me...? Granted, that's "you" instead of "I", but that shouldn't affect whether it can be grammatically acceptable. --Trovatore (talk) 03:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

You could present much simpler examples, even with an I, e.g.: "I wondered if I would have arrived there by midnight". That's acceptable everywhere, including the BBC. However, we're talking about an "If" which means "on condition that", and I claimed that (as long as this is the meaning of our "if") the form: "If I / you / he would" - would never be accepted in the UK, whatever the context would be. 84.229.229.186 (talk) 03:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

There are various sentence contexts in which "if I would" is possible in BrE, including examples like "I don't know if I would like it" and (referring to oneself as if one was another person) "If I would just shut up for a moment". However, "if I would have (done something)", which is the form relevant to my question, is always wrong in BrE as far as I know. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 03:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

As I said, if I would have as a simple counterfactual is substandard in the US as well. Acceptable uses are things like if you would have stopped for a moment and thought about it, you could have prevented.... This is not a simple counterfactual, though the distinction is subtle; it suggests that your failure to stop and think was somehow willful, not just something that might have happened but didn't. My hypothesis is that this would is (or is at least influenced by) a past subjunctive of will in the sense of "choice" or "desire". --Trovatore (talk) 04:06, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"If I would have..." is nonstandard in the UK, as far as I know. Well, it certainly sounds wrong to me. However, in the case of UK speakers, I believe that they perceive they are saying "If I had have...", not "If I would have...". In fact, I'm sure some people actually do say "had" in full. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 02:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, some people do say "If only he had have (or had've) come earlier, things would have (or would've) worked out better". It sounds like it ought to be correct, because would've is fine so why shouldn't had've be ok too - but it ain't. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 04:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this confusion - between "I would" and "I had" - stems from the fact that both phrases can be shortened by "I'd". If I'm correct, then those (Aussies?) who mix "I would (have)" with "I had (have)", may also mix "would" with "have" in other contexts, e.g. in "I would go" (that may become "I had go") and likewise. Sounds wierd, but "I had have" does not sound less wierd. Similarly, if they really confuse "would" with "had", then why not vice versa, e.g. in "I had done", which may become "I would done". However, I've never met those guys, so I can't argue with them. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 8 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no general confusion between "I would" and "I had" in Australia. But many people do say "had have" or "had've" in constructions like the example I gave above, simply, I suspect, for reasons of euphony. "If you had've done it" rolls off the tongue more easily than "If you had done it". "Had've" feels like it's in the same class of expressions as "could've", "would've" and "should've", so it's fair game. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

This class contains also "might've" - which is quite standard. However, I still think that "had've" - beyond its being nonstandard - is very rare (if not absent) outside Australia (and UK, according to MrPedantic's testimony in this forum). 86.177.108.83 (talk) 10:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• There's something weird here. I was the OP, and, as you can see, my IP at that time was 86.177.108.83 (it's different now because I get a new one every time I log on). However, two later posts ("I think this confusion - between "I would" and "I had" - stems from the fact that both phrases can be shortened..." and "This class contains also "might've" - which is quite standard...") have the same IP signature but were not written by me and do not seem to appear in that IP's list of contributions. What's going on? 86.179.112.238 (talk) 14:18, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It would appear that the IP user 77.125.77.80 originally signed their post with their IP address, but inexplicably changed it to yours (and did so again). 139.173.54.11 (talk) 18:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC).

How strange. 77.125.77.80, if you ever return here, what were your reasons for doing such a thing? 86.146.109.211 (talk) 20:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"Now then"

"Had have" above reminds me of another quirk of the English language: what does "now then" mean? At least in British English, it is a common enough construction, and obviously some sort of emphasis, as in when the local constabulary encounters one meandering back from the local, and attempts to restrain one's over-exuberant rendition of The Wild Rover which the neighbours may not appreciate,: "Now then, enough of this, or you'll be spending a night in the cells". When is the 'now', why is it also a 'then' and how does this apparent temporal oxymoron make sense? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

My wildly unsourced speculation is that the 'now' is intended to mean something along the lines of 'focus on me, now'--it's an attention-getter. Hence the phrase's applicability both as a telling-off and as a prelude to any kind of discussion or speech (Jimmy Saville-style). The 'then' isn't a past then: it's a 'then' of consequences. 'Think of the consequences' if you're telling someone off, or 'let's move forwards' for Jimmy. Henry^Flower 05:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I most often see this used in the context of a traditional British Police Constable. In fact I'm not aware I've ever heard it used outside the context of parody, such as monty python's spoof on the Cray brothers (the Piranha Brothers) where an inspector undercover as an actor spoils a play's rape scene by appearing on stage crying "now then!" and "what's all this, then?!" I would tend to think it's purely idiomantic, without any specific literal meaning. Caveat: I've only briefly been to the UK, and then only to London, and in my time there I wasn't ever stopped by the law. I watch a lot of BBC, however. HominidMachinae (talk) 05:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

See also: Monty Python "Police Constable PanAm" Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

And while we're at it what about "how about" or "how's about" as in "How about we all go for a meal?" Or "what's up" as in "What's up with that guy?". I think there are others but I can't grab them right now. Richard Avery (talk) 08:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Try a dictionary "now then: a sentence opener indicating that a new topic is being opened or that the speaker is getting down to business."[14] "now then: said to attract attention to what you are going to ask or suggest".[15]. For "how about" see [16][17]. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's not so much 'what does it mean?' as 'where did they come from?' what are the etymologies of these strange, strictly speaking, ungrammatical idioms. Richard Avery (talk) 11:32, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I would guess that "now" and its equivalents have also had a non-temporal usage for as long as English has been a language (and longer). Old English had it. German's "nun" can have a non-temporal sense. Classical Latin's "nunc" can have a non-temporal sense. Classical Greek's νῦν can have a non-temporal sense. This certainly suggests the usage is very ancient indeed, but the possibility remains that the speakers of the word and its cognates have a tendency to extend the word to non-temporal usage and have done so many times. Either way, I don't think "now then" in its regular usage is an oxymoron and certainly not ungrammatical, it just features a long-standing non-temporal usage of "now", and possibly as long-standing as the branching of the Indo-European languages. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:17, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"Now then" was one of the phrases I had to come to terms with when I moved to Yorkshire twenty years ago. In my experience up to then, it was a challenging phrase meaning something like "There's something I want to talk to you about, and I'm not pleased, and you're not going to be either". But people I met in Yorkshire used it for a friendly greeting. --ColinFine (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Alphabetical order

Where did the order of the alphabet come from? How was it decided that A was the first letter and Z was the last, for instance, or that alpha was first and omega was last, and so on? Smurrayinchester 14:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Because of the song. Sorry! --LarryMac | Talk 14:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

See Alphabet#Alphabetic order. It doesn't cite a source, but it says that the earliest defined sequences have been found in some Ugaritic tablets (circa 1500-1300 BC). I think the best guess would be that the order was slowly adopted as a convention, which has been kept fairly stable through several thousand years. —Akrabbim^talk 15:14, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The earliest version of the overall Phoenician-Greek-Latin alphabet order that we know about is that visible in the first 27 letters of the Ugaritic cuneiform alphabet (the last 3 letters of that alphabet are later additions within Ugaritic):

ʔ

b

g

ḫ

d

h

w

z

ḥ

ṭ

y

k

š

l

m

ḏ

n

ẓ

s

ʕ

p

ṣ

q

r

ṯ

ġ

t

By the way, I've been preparing a better version of the Ugaritic alphabet overview image; it will be resizable vector SVG instead of PNG, but needs more work to be ready... AnonMoos (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

About Z in particular, this letter once used to be among the first few letters of the Roman alphabet, then was abolished as needless, and then was reinstated, but didn't have its original position restored but rather was placed at the end.

Note also that some languages have made certain minor revisions to their alphabetical orders.

Examples: In the alphabets of Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Faroese, Finnish and Estonian, letters like Å, Ä, Æ, Ö, Ø, Þ, Õ, Ü are placed at the end, after Z.

In addition, in the Estonian alphabet, Z and Ž come right after S and Š:

... P, R, S, Š, Z, Ž, T, U, ...

In the Lithuanian alphabet, Y comes right after I and Į:

... G, H, I, Į, Y, J, K, ...

In the Azerbaijani alphabet, X comes right after H, and Q comes right after K:

... G, Ğ, H, X, I, İ, J, K, Q, L, M, ...

In some alphabets, for example in the Hungarian one, digraphs and trigraphs are considered independent letters. Thus, the Hungarian alphabet consists of 40 letters (or 44, if you count the non-native Q, W, X and Y):

A, Á, B, C, Cs, D, Dz, Dzs, E, É, F, ...

In Hungarian dictionaries, the word cukor precedes the word csoda, because cukor begins with C, and csoda begins with Cs.

In the Tongan alphabet, Ng comes right after N, and ʻ comes right after V. --Theurgist (talk) 16:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Having mentioned Tongan, let me not forget the Hawaiian alphabet, which, unusually, has all vowels first, then all other letters:

A, E, I, O, U, H, K, L, M, N, P, W. --Theurgist (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

By the way, here's a version of the table showing which current Latin letters correspond to which letters in the first known alphabetic order:

ʔ

b

g

ḫ

d

h

w

z

ḥ

ṭ

y

k

š

l

m

ḏ

n

ẓ

s

ʕ

p

ṣ

q

r

ṯ

ġ

t

A

B

C G

D

E

F U V W Y

Z

H

I J

K

L

M

N

X

O

P

Q

R

S

T

Some things are a little more complex than can be shown in this format (particularly "s"-"X", which has a kind of structural relationship, but no actual shape correspondence with bthe Phoenician letter). AnonMoos (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Capentry - "fir", "furr" or "fur"

What is the correct term for adding wood studs or strips to thicken a wall

• to "fir" out
• to "furr" out
• to "fur" out

also, does a carpernter: add wood "firring" add wood "furring"

These words and terms are widely used but inconsistantly spelled — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.21.118.194 (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Furr, see Furring. 17:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that article does not use the related verb and so cannot answer the fur/furr question. My Merriam-Webster's Collegiate says that the verb meaning "to apply furring to" is fur. Deor (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

"Kn" in English

In Monty Python's Holy Grail, the French call Arthur and his knights something like "English k-nigts", pronouncing the "k" and thus making fun of the way "knights" in English is pronounced like "nights". But when did this "k-dropping" start? English surely must have pronounced the "k" at some point. As far as I am aware, in Swedish and German, which are both somewhat related to English, "kn" does have the "k" pronounced. JIP | Talk 19:45, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 16 for a recent discussion of this point. Mikenorton (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

March 9

Singular or plural verb?

Which is the correct choice for each sentence?

1. More than one apple is/are red.
2. More than one of the apples is/are red.
3. One or more apples is/are red.
4. One or more of the apples is/are red.

--Theurgist (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Looks to me like "is", "are", either, either. StuRat (talk) 00:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)