Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

1921 Cardinals season

There appears to be some confusion over whether or not during that season, they were the Racine Cardinals or the Chicago Cardinals. GoodDay (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

It looks like they used both names in 1920 and 1921. As the NFL Record & Fact Book has them in the standings as the Chicago Cardinals that season, I'd suggest that is the name we should use. I don't know how to rename an article, though. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@Harper J. Cole: To move an article, click on the box saying "more" next to "view history" and "edit source" at the top of the page. Then a button saying "move" should pop up. Click that and it will let you rename the page. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks - it looks like there's a procedure for potentially controversial moves. I can imagine people disagreeing with this, so I'll follow that procedure. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Notability of personal records

All,

Looking at LaDainian Tomlinson#NFL records, there are 59 records listed, a lot of which seem rather obscure (e.g. Most games with 14 or more points in a season, Most consecutive seasons with 6+ rushing touchdowns). I feel these obscure the more significant records (e.g. Most single season touchdowns, Most consecutive games with a touchdown). They're also largely unsourced, or sourced with broken links. Is there a general rule deciding which records are significant?

Thanks, Harper J. Cole (talk) 21:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Rely on your gut instinct and if you're unsure go to the talk page. I'm not aware of any rule but I would agree the more obscure records can be deleted. We're supposed to rely on summary style on Wikipedia. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Oof, looking at these there's a whole lot of cherry picked stats and unnecessary WP:FANCRUFT, much of which may fall under WP:TRIVIA. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey man im josh, not to mention, the number of citation needed tags throughout the section. I totally agree with you, a good bit of it falls under WP:FANCRUFT. SPF121188 ^{(talk this way) (contribs)} 14:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Some of those CN tags were from me. I reformatted the section, removed some records (more should honestly be removed), and started to add citations. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh! fair enough. I didn't check to see how long the tags were there, but yeah it does seem like some could be removed. The section itself looks good aesthetically, just a little bloated (which it seems there's agreement on.) SPF121188 ^{(talk this way) (contribs)} 15:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The LaDainian Tomlinson records section is super crufty. Any record worth mentioning here should be mentioned explicitly by some reliable source, not merely minable from a reliable database. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:28, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Have at it people. Slash what you think is appropriate. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

So, I guess that each record should have two citations: one from a reliable source, showing that the record is notable, and one from a database to show that the record still stands? Harper J. Cole (talk) 22:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Position field for ex-players now in front office roles

In his infobox, LaDainian Tomlinson's position is currently listed as "Special assistant". This is technically true, but it's quite a minor ambassadorial role (the citation in the article describes it as "largely symbolic"), while he's primarily known as a running back. Similarly, John Elway is listed as a consultant rather than a quarterback. Should individuals be listed by their most famous role, by their current role, or maybe both? Harper J. Cole (talk) 18:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Those ought to be changed. Template:Infobox NFL biography says the position field is "used to display the player's most frequently played position" and doesn't mention anything about post-playing careers. Hatman31 (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but what do you do with a guy like Dieon Sanders? Or Hall of Fame linebacker / general manager John Lynch?

My opinion is that you have them as their current position with whatever team they're a part of, in whatever capacity they're currently in, or you add an additional parameter for situations like this. Something that encompasses a post-playing career role, specifically as an executive or coach and not including going into being an analyst or TV personality. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Lynch's position could easily be listed as Linebacker / General Manager, or a new parameter could be added as you suggest. I think either of those options would be better than the status quo. Hatman31 (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Would we then list only the more important non-playing roles (e.g. head coach, general manager), or also more minor roles (e.g. special assistant, consultant). Head coaches and general managers are notable in their own right, after all, whereas Tomlinson's special assistant role wouldn't merit a mention if it wasn't being filled by a Hall of Famer. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I think that's essentially the right way to go about things; head coach, general manager, and possibly coordinator positions should be included, while special assistant and consultant roles aren't necessary; they should probably be mentioned in the lead but not the infobox. Hatman31 (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Player's position

What do you do when a team's website lists a player as one thing, and their depth chart lists them in a different position? The most prominent example I've seen so far is that Von Miller's player page lists him as a linebacker. But if you look at the Bills' depth chart, he's listed as a defensive end. It makes it a pain to define positions for team roster templates.

Also, what do we give more weight to when deciding which position for a player is accurate? A team's website, NFL's website, or Pro-Football-Reference? I've seen all three list something differently, but when a player is a free agent and not on a team, I personally find PFR to be more reliable for a player's position, but I'd like to establish consensus on which to lean on in times of dispute. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd generally go with the depth chart over their "official" position, but even that can be iffy or just straight up wrong. In cases like that I would try to just go for a more encompassing term, like edge rusher, defensive back, or offensive lineman.

As for which is more accurate, I will always go with the team's website for position, jersey number, height, and weight. The only reason people even use NFL.com for that sort of thing is because of its integration in the infobox. I still think we can have the team's profile page for that player get automatically pulled from |current_team= since the URLs are standardized across all 32 teams (with the exception of some Dallas players for some reason, but those can be manually fixed). I'd even go with PFR over NFL.com since they tend to respond quickly to any errors unlike NFL.com ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 11:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd prefer to list edge rusher on some players' pages, as it's more accurate for some guys, but it's something I don't see gaining steam when most official sites don't use that term for a player's position. One difficulty with the depth charts is when simply list "DL" for all 3 slots they plan on utilizing in a 3-4 defense. Technically we can infer that the middle "DL" spot should be NT, but we don't actually know. Same thing when they list all 4 slots as DL, like the Lions do. But when it's explicitly defined in the depth chart, I do lean towards that as being their official position.

Pulling the player's page from the team's site is actually a great idea if it's as feasible as you say. There is one particular user out there who bases a lot of their edits for weight off the NFL's page, which typically goes un-updated from the point they're drafted. Completely agree with referencing a team's player page for weight since they're the ones who would be most knowledgeable, and more likely to keep a player's weight up to date. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Third-party reliable sources take priority over profile pages, so if they are consistently cited as just a pass/edge rusher then we shouldn't have any problem using that here too. And the 3-4 DL issue you brought up are even easier to figure out since their roles are more defined and thus are generally mentioned in the media.

And I'm well aware of that user, I've told him that eventually NFL.com and PFR updates their weights with the same one listed on the team's page but they did not care. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 12:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Are team websites considered third party? I'm sure PFR would be considered as such, but the team websites is where I get confused for that. Perhaps we should add something to the WP:NFLINFOBOX that mentions team websites should be prioritized for height and weight over NFL and PFR. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

No, they would be considered a primary source (WP:PRIMARY) while PFR is a database that verifies information but does not establish notability. We'd also need consensus to stop using NFL.com for player measurements. The last time I tried to propose such a thing, it died as it lacked much discussion. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 14:26, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Sergio Skol: Just wanted to send a ping in case you had any interest in participating in the discussion. Pinging you because I updated Von's position based on the depth chart and you changed it back based on the team's position listed on his player page. No hard feelings about it, because I don't think either of us is technically wrong, but I thought you might want to contribute to the discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:05, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

My preference is for both to be listed, the "actual" position (usually listed on the depth chart) and the "technical" position (what's listed on the player profile and matching the player numbering rules). In the case of Miller, sources for both positions are about equal weight (primary sources from the team) so I wouldn't include one over the other. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 14:28, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

This is where I lean towards edge rusher being a listed position personally. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, about the positions of the players, I'd prefer to give more importance to the depth chart of the team, and if they're listed as DL or DB for example, write it down like this, in the Von Miller's case I changed his position from DE to OLB because #40 is technically illegal to wear for DLs, and his profile says he's a LB, but if he's listed as a DE, I'd rather write that here too. Sergio Skol (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Good point about the jersey numbers, I hadn't factored that in. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Colours

Has someone been messing with the NFL team colour templates? I don't know if it's showing up for anyone else, but infoboxes in certain Vikings season articles are showing up with a black secondary title (see 1999 Minnesota Vikings season for example). – PeeJay 14:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems to be that way all the up to the 2013 Minnesota Vikings season. I also just checked out the Vikings' draft navboxes. Anything prior to 2013 has a black footer. So, the team's colours appear to have been defined as purple and black up until the 2013 season (at least by Wiki formatting). Hey man im josh (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

That must be a very recent change as it wasn't like that a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, I can't work out where the change may have been made. Any ideas? – PeeJay 15:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

So, looking at the templates for draft navboxes, I eventually found that all colours are pulled from Module:Gridiron color/data. This page was changed a number of times in August by User:Charlesaaronthompson. This includes an item at line 219 which changes the colour for the Vikings from 1960 to 2012. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, what a surprise that Charles is responsible. Mind fixing that, Charlie boy? – PeeJay 16:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I have fixed that now. The problem was that when I had added an entry for the Minnesota Vikings' team color codes at Module:Gridiron color/data, I had forgotten to add a border color. I have fixed that now. The Vikings' draft navboxes should not have a black footer now. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 18:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

That fixed it, thank you! Hey man im josh (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Team and history pages

Just want to inform everyone that a certain editor has recently been running around and copying content (duplicating would be a better word for that) from team history (for example, History of the New York Jets to main page (for example, New York Jets. I have already reverted the editor's edits and want to see everyone other's opinions about it. – Sabbatino 03:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of those changes. If they want to combine the two pages as they are they should propose a merge instead of duplicating the text. I saw they posted about this on your talk page and I encouraged them to open a dialogue here if they want to make large changes like that across all the franchise articles. I also mentioned it in a few of the reverts I did of their changes. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I can understand the dislike of the changes. Just trying to have all 32 teams have a similar history section. Individual history sections are a bit messy and I do believe that the history should be on the main page of each individual team. I have had some positive feedback from what I have been trying to achieve. I think this discussion should go further and we should consider merging the history pages with the team pages and cataloging them in an encyclopedic fashion. Whiterabbitzero (talk) 22:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

That's what the separate articles that each team have are for though. By including that, you're stretching out the article, and when does it become too much? By having a separate history page we can go more in depth while keeping the main franchise page to the key points, with pointing to other articles that expand further. I feel like the massive histories of some teams being listed in depth as they are, on the history pages, being included in the main articles would actually dissuade people from reading further. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Still new to editing. Should have created a discussion first. Thanks for the feedback :) Whiterabbitzero (talk) 22:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

A relevant guideline is Wikipedia:Summary style, where details are typically left for the subtopic article.—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Based on that guideline ("The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it."), it seems to me that the history sections on team pages are typically too long. E.g. the history section in Los Angeles Chargers is about 6,200 words, while the dedicated history pages History of the Los Angeles Chargers and San Diego Chargers add up to about 9,100 words. Far from being a summary of the history subtopics, the history section is well over half their length, with extensive duplication. It's pretty much the same story for every NFL team. Really, the summary should only be a couple of paragraphs. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Learning a lot here. Great point about that the team history pages being a better place than the team main article. I think that those should at least be cleaned up and cataloged better Whiterabbitzero (talk) 22:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Franchise Histories

I was attempting to organize all 32 NFL team articles history section into a format that all 32 teams would have, to make the history sections more encyclopedic.

The format that I came up with is as follows:

Franchise History

Subheading 1) Owner era (years owned) *can combine eras if ownership was for a short period of time

Subheading 2) Head Coach years (years coached) *only coaches who have won SB/NFL championship, AFC/NFC champ, and/or Division champ

Subheading 3) SB/NFL/AFL champions (year won)

any other subheading could also include relevant information such as a relocation or other footnote of team history.

I am also thinking that perhaps there should only be two subsections (Owner & championship) and leave out head coaches. Obviously there are more head coaches in NFL history than owners.

As far as separate history pages are concerned I do believe (after the great points brought up by @Hey man im josh) that there should be a summarized history on the main team page, while this format should be included on the more extensive "History of" pages. Also clean up the history pages. Most of them are very messy and should be cleaned up regardless.

My goal here is to have all 32 teams conform to the same format for history section so that we have a sense of continuity. This could also apply for the order of each section for all the team pages. Since I was informed that it is better to start discussion before making any mass edits, here I am. Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on the matter. Have a great day everyone!

Whiterabbitzero (talk) 01:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

There are some teams where it might make more sense to talk about city eras than owner eras, e.g. the Raiders' history breaks down quite naturally into Oakland-Los Angeles-Oakland-Las Vegas, whereas Al Davis was their owner for 39 years. Also, with the Colts it seems more natural to think in terms of the Manning era than any of their head coaches. That said, I can see the benefit of a consistent system and wouldn't object if people prefer that. Harper J. Cole (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It's a disservice to make it so mechanical. Franchise owners are rarely definining for an era, and neither are head coaches inherently so, exceptions being iconic ones like Lombardi, Belichick, etc, but it's just as likely to be notable for a player or other reason, e.g. History of the Pittsburgh Steelers#The 1970s: The Steel Curtain dynasty.—Bagumba (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Bagumba. It's not a bad idea by any means, but not every NFL franchise fits this cookie-cutter template. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  21:46, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Accessibility issues with NFL brackets

Hello. There is an issue with the current tournament brackets used in NFL pages, such as {{14TeamBracket-NFL}} implemented on 2021 NFL season. The background colors used cause an accessibility issue. Specifically, neither the red nor the blue background is WCAG AAA compatible for standard blue links and purple visited links. Per MOS:COLOR, we should be meeting the AAA standard whenever possible. It is in my opinion that the colors are largely unnecessary, and we should be using the standard grey background that is used for every other team bracket, such as {{8TeamBracket}}. Nonetheless, the accessibility issue should be addressed. – Pbrks ^(t • c) 05:49, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

RFC: Volume stats sections combining regular season and playoffs

Should the tables with the combined regular season and playoff statistics be deleted?

This keeps happening on a number of pages (primarily on statistics in which Tom Brady would be on the top of the leaderboard). See:

• List_of_National_Football_League_career_passing_completions_leaders#Most_completions_and_attempts,_including_playoff_games
• List_of_National_Football_League_career_passing_touchdowns_leaders#Most_career_touchdown_passes_including_playoff_games
• List_of_National_Football_League_career_passing_yards_leaders#Players_with_the_most_career_passing_yards_including_playoff_games

There may be other articles with the same problem. The NFL does not combine regular season and post-season statistics. See, for example, page 622 of the 2022 Official National Football League Record & Fact Book (PDF found here: https://operations.nfl.com/updates/the-game/2022-nfl-record-and-fact-book/). Combining the statistics constitutes original research. I am opening this discussion to talk about the removal of combined regular season and post-season stats from all articles within the scope of the NFL WikiProject. Useight (talk) 16:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I've been making the case on several pages that these combined stats should not exist in articles. They're never tracked together and I've been dealing with a user at Talk:Tom Brady strongly advocating for it on Brady's article. I'd much rather those sections be deleted altogether as they're just puffery in my opinion. For what it's worth, all 3 of those sections were added by the same user, User:Randy Kryn.

They also don't seem to be included on any of the stat lists that are unrelated to passing. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Sounds like crufty OR. Delete with impunity. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe I pinged @Randy Kryn:, as I edited my reply to include their name, so sending a ping their way so they can chime in. Only fair to give them a chance to advocate for the content they're adding in to articles. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• Misleading language right off the bat (I didn't add the sections, I readded these long-term sections back after they all were removed without discussion), never a good sign. Please read the titles of the pages and their leads - each of the sections are covered in the title! Nothing broken here. Whoever first added them has done Wikipedia and its football pages a favor, as I for one have been checking those interesting sections for years. May I ask the naysayers, what exactly is your problem with the information? How does any of it harm rather than build and improve the encyclopedia? Which of the sections in question do not relate to the page titles they exist on? I could say more but let's jump over this misleading and "I don't like it" stuff first, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:57, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  My apologies then if you were not the original, but I felt it relevant to include you since you were the one who did add them back. I thought you would be interested in participating and it does seem that way.

  Can you show me any website that tracks the combined regular season and playoff statistics together? I haven't found them on NFL's website, Pro-Football-Reference, ESPN, none of the major website try it as a statistic.

  When "career" statistics are discussed, regular and post-season stats are always mentioned separately instead of being added together. The one exception to this? Tom Brady. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for the ping and correction. I don't edit the Tom Brady page outside of seven minor edits since 2017, and haven't read it aside from a skim for styling. He is quite the player though, we are lucky to be interested in football during his last seasons. As for the sections in question, they fit the page titles perfectly. I'm still not seeing a problem but rather see the sections as improving the encyclopedic coverage maintained by the page titles. Seriously, what information presented is not beneficial and encyclopedic to share with readers or is outside the scope of the page titles? Randy Kryn (talk) 13:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Oh no, sorry, there's a completely separate user I've bene dealing with on Tom Brady's talk page. As I'm sure you're aware you were pinged because of the additions to the above linked lists. I feel the need to explain that for anybody else reading.

  To me they don't appear as an improvement. Wikipedia is not a database and including stats that major stat websites don't track, at least in my opinion, goes against that. It comes across as WP:TRIVIA and WP:FANCRUFT. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for chiming in. I won't be addressing the WP:IDONTLIKEIT versus WP:ILIKEIT stuff, nor anything regarding specific players. I will address the rest, though. The tables do not fit the page titles. Per the PDF I linked above, per Pro-Football-Reference's leaderboard, and per NFL.com's stat pages, playoff stats are not included in career totals. Ergo, within a Wikipedia article entitled "List of National Football League career passing yards leaders", playoff statistics would not be included. To that end, I would also support removing the playoff-specific tables off those pages and onto their own (but that's another discussion). That all being said, even if these tables in question did fit within the scope of the article's title, that does not inherently qualify them for the page, even if a subset of people believe the information to be beneficial and/or encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. These tables are original research and not notable. Useight (talk) 15:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, I had brought up making standalone lists of notable playoff stats at Talk:List of National Football League career passing completions leaders. Agree that the combined totals still seem WP:UNDUE / WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Unpopular opinion but stats tables shouldn't really belong on Wikipedia. We have Pro Football Reference that does the exact same thing in a better format. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

To the extent that a grouping meets WP:LISTN, a standalone list has merit, along with some meaningful stats for entries in said list. But yes, Wikipedia does not maintain stats lists merely because they are verifiable (WP:ONUS).—Bagumba (talk) 00:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

• The three article's names and leads define the sections in question. Nothing is broken here. For example, the name of the page is List of National Football League career passing completions leaders and that's exactly what it covers, in full. Regular, post season, and combined stats. What exactly is the problem, and why are you all focused on removing long-standing and obviously title-relevant statistics? Randy Kryn (talk) 02:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  As mentioned, in summation,

  • It's WP:TRIVIA
  • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate database
  • It's WP:OR
  • It's WP:FANCRUFT
  • Combined regular season and playoff statistics are not a measured statistic, though they can obviously be calculated
  • It's WP:UNDUE
  • These stats have only been tracked, combined, on the passing related statistics pages

  Just because something has remained on Wikipedia for an extended period of time does not mean it should have or should remain. Hey man im josh (talk) 03:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  This seems more "I don't like it" reasoning enhanced by throwing around names of guidelines and policies and essays which contain little page-defining language that applies to anything we are discussing. To emphasis without boldfacing: The long-standing statistics all pertain to the titles of their pages. Nothing broken. Exact matches. And two of the three leads cover the criteria presented - I tried to bring the third into language which would both be consistent with the other two and accurately define what is on the page, but was reverted. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Gonna throw my hat into the ring here and say that these shouldn't be included. Combined totals aren't a thing in the NFL, so no reason to do so here. Toa Nidhiki05 03:52, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

There has been press about Brady nearing 100,000 regular and post season combined passing yards (here's the latest, from NBC Sports). I don't know if the NFL has commented on this, but sourced coverage about this 100,000 mark seems to justify, if we are going to get technical, the existence of all of the simple and page-title encompassing combinations mentioned here. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

If a particular player passing a particular combined milestone like this gets enough coverage, it may make sense to note that in his bio article. For a somewhat analogous example, the lead of Ichiro Suzuki mentions his combined 4,367 hits in pro baseball between MLB and Japan. But while we have List of Major League Baseball career hits leaders and List of Nippon Professional Baseball career hits leaders, we don't have a whole list of MLB plus Japan combined hits leaders. One-off mentions of particularly salient combined totals do not make those combined stats notable enough to deserve an entire list on Wikipedia. Rather, we'd need reliable sources to list out these combined stats. Randy Kryn, can you show us official NFL records or definitive statistical almanacs like Pro-Football-Reference.com providing a full list treatment to combined regular season plus playoffs stats? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:41, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Moving the goalposts (something Brady could do with help from Gronk), but I'll play. Japan's Nippon and U.S. Major League baseball do not list combined crossover stats for good reason - they are different leagues. Apples and rice. As Brady nears the quickly-becoming-legendary and notable 100,000 combined regular season and playoff yards, more and more sources will add to the good sources already focusing on this recognized record (here's another, from Profootballnetwork.com). This attention doesn't apply to Brady's stats alone but is sourced recognition that combined regular season and playoff stats do have notable meaning. This provides real-world justification that Wikipedia's long-term quarterback combination statistics, which go deeper than the 100,000 mark but still align with NFL career figures, follow the same logical concept. Career means career, not regular season only, and unlike your Japan-American baseball comparison which has no formal connection these NFL regular season and playoff stats both relate to one league. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

So add it to Brady's article. Significant coverage includes coverage of more than one person, even if there's a significant number of coverage for the one person.

Career means career, not regular season only,

Not in the context of the NFL. I'm going to point you towards Tom Brady's NFL.com page. Playoff stats are missing under the career stats sections because the NFL considers "career stats" as regular season stats excluding playoffs. This is echoed by all stat websites. Look at Pro-Football-Reference, ESPN, and Football Database, they're the most relied upon databases for stats besides the NFL's own website, and they also list career stats as only regular season stats. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:03, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Covering the 100,000 number does apply to more than one person, it applies to every quarterback who ever played in the NFL who hasn't achieved that mark. What you and the others are asking for here is to remove massive amounts of long-standing information from the lead and body of the three articles in question, something which harms the encyclopedia (thus WP:IAR kicks in) and hinders readers like myself who follow these stats week-by-week. Here's another reputable source which mentions the 100,000 mark in terms of "total career passing yards". Randy Kryn (talk) 13:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

An article from MSN does not overrule the primary source of the NFL, or the other mentioned reliable sources, regarding the definition of career statistics. As mentioned, you're still only showing coverage of the combined statistics relating to one person. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the combined rankings from the articles, for now, given there's an ongoing discussion and the general vibe is these shouldn't be there. Toa Nidhiki05 13:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Reverted. This needs a full RfC to remove these long-term stats which are harming nobody and improving the encyclopedia, the talk pages weren't notified of this discussion, very few editors are aware of this local discussion, and as mentioned above the 100,000 number for Brady's passing yards are very notable and will become more so as the season proceeds. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Added RFC tag to this thread and added comment to talk page of each relevant individual page. Complete overkill for determining consensus regarding the inclusion of a section of text on some articles, but, sure, I'll file the paperwork. No problem. Useight (talk) 22:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Randy Kryn, this is really getting ridiculous. We need an RFC before we can remove uncited content? I mean we have one now, but it's absurd for you to demand that someone else open one for this. I could add lots of things to lots of articles that wouldn't "harm" anyone. But "harm" or lack thereof is not the standard for inclusion. Rather, notability established by coverage in reliable sources is the standard for inclusion. Did you have any such sources that list out combined regular season and playoff NFL statistics like this? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

It really is. There seems to be a solid consensus here, with a number of experienced editors stating valid reasons and supporting its removal. The only opposition in this case has been Randy who hasn't given us anything beyond WP:ILIKEIT and significant coverage of Brady's combined stat. However, focusing the entire argument around Brady giving undue weight to coverage of Brady's significant stats, which at this point are basically routine.

I've been, from the start, asking to show any type of significant coverage for the stat beyond articles mentioning Brady closing in on 100k combined yards, or something similar. They've since tried to redefine what career statistics are considered. It does more harm to favour inclusion of stats that favour Brady than it does to remove the statistic that's not tracked. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Just going to jump in after having skimmed everything else. I say there's nothing wrong with it provided, of course, they're actually sourced and not merely WP:OR based on other stats we already have lying around with sources attached to them. We could disambiguate alongside the combined stats, i.e. we could show totals for regular and post season results and the two categories separately. At the same time, however, I've seen concern that combining the two categories only rarely comes up in the press we could cite, if it ever comes up at all, so perhaps it's not really a significant point of intersection for the particular interests of the encyclopedia (i.e. it's not a notable aspect unto itself so we shouldn't really care if no one else we normally cite does). The buzz about e.g. Tom Brady on his way to 100K passing yards could be brought up on his article or in whichever few places it's truly relevant. I would say another argument to keep the status quo is that not everyone makes it to the post season, so those who do tend to benefit from their stats being enhanced by post season games, therefore it carries additional implications of notability and dominance for the palyers involved, but again, that's just my point of view and not really something that seems to be cared much about on the whole, so we wouldn't find it in too many publications. I'm fine with things the way they are if we can source them, but the trouble seems to have been exactly that, so I'll go with the flow on this one. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 01:55, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tex Kelly

Tex Kelly, a player with 17 games in the NFL, has been nominated for deletion. See here for the discussion. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Help add Depict statements to NFL player photos on Commons

There is a project on Wikimedia Commons to add structed data elements to as many files as possible. One of the important data elements is the Depict statement which says what is depicted in the image. A very easy to use tool called Depictor has been written using a game like interface to add Depict statements to Commons images. It's very easy and anyone can do it. I have created a challenge on the Depictor tool site to add Depict statements to all of the possible photos of NFL players on Commons. If anyone would like to help you can find the challenge here. When you click on the link you will be shown a known photo of an NFL player on the left and another photo on the right . If the photo on the right shown the NFL player you just click on Yes, if it doesn't click on No, if you are not sure then click on Skip (On a mobile device the known photo will be on the top and the unknown on the bottom). There is a Youtube video describing the tool and how to use it here Thanks Captain-tucker (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)