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Diane Schuler

Diane Schuler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
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Tragic event, but there are thousands of similarly tragic traffic accidents every year, and this is not a particularly notable incident. Denied speedy deletion previously, so PROD was not an option. Risker (talk) 16:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion:

  • Extremely Strong Keep - Not particularly notable? Thousands of similarly tragic traffic accidents every year? Come now. I can hardly take those claims seriously. In fact, this deletion suggestion probably falls under the WP:Snowball clause. While there are many traffic crashes each year, I have never seen any similar to this ... let alone the "thousands similar to this", as you claim. This is indeed notable ... and far different from the other thousands of crashes. This is notable on so many levels, that I hardly know where to begin. It is notable, as it appears in reliable sources consistently and repeatedly over the past few months ... with each developing turn of the story. Differences between many thousands of "garden variety" road crashes include: 8 people died; a mother caused the death of her own children / family (numbering 4), as opposed to strangers; the inexplicable actions of Schuler; she was driving the wrong way on a road she is familiar with; she had enormous amounts of drugs / alcohol while choosing to drive with her own children / nieces; she called home to state that she wasn't feeling well; the young child called home to state that the driver was acting strangely; the alleged drunk driver has no history of drinking or drunk driving; what parent would put their own kid in harm's way like this ... much less 5 of their own kids?; the aftermath back-and-forth tit-for-tat between Schuler's husband and the other victims (which has been highly publicized, sourced, and thus notable); etc., etc., etc. I could go on and on. This case is extremely unique. I cannot fathom how you equate it with "thousands of similar traffic accidents" that occur every year. In fact, I would challenge you to cite even one similar event. Just one. Furthermore, this was the worst accident on that highway in 75+ years ... notable in itself. In addition, this event was a catalyst to open national discussion / debate about "hidden alcoholism" and how it can be very hard to detect in people. It opened national debate / discussion about "closet drinkers" among suburban housewives and mothers. Also, this event prompted a few states to consider new laws about drunk driving while children are in the car. (See, for example, the following article that recently appeared in The New York Daily News: In Wake of Taconic Crash, Governor Paterson's Tough Talk on New Legislation on DUIs if Kids Aboard.) (In fact, these new laws will probably be come to be popularly known as the "Schuler Act", in my opinion.) How much more significant / notable do you want? This case heightened awareness and discussion of alcohol issues on very many levels throughout the nation. Quite frankly, suggesting that this be deleted is simply ridiculous. And claiming that this event is "similar to thousands of other similar crashes" merely demonstrates severe misunderstanding, ignorance, and/or lack of knowledge of the issues at hand ... and the deep impact that this event had in the USA. No one will be able to cite even one similar crash ... much less the thousands similar to this that you proffer. That being said ... as I stated on the article Talk Page, however, this article should be renamed "2009 Taconic State Parkway crash" (or some such) ... as opposed to "Diane Schuler". (See: Talk:Diane Schuler#Title of article, posted by me on 08-22-09.) This article is about the crash; it is not a biography of Diane Schuler. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
Comment I can see the long-term notability for this particular accident, based on the coverage by sources outside of New York (USA Today, ABC news, NPR, etc.) and since it will be cited as an example of the tragedy that can be caused by drinking and driving. But I can't say "keep" for this ghoulish, over-the-top, minute-by-minute, retrace-the-route account of the tragedy that appears to have been lifted from the Journal-News website. Mandsford (talk) 19:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment is ambiguous. Are you advocating Keep or Delete? Suggesting that ghoulish facts and details in an article be re-written is far different than suggesting that said article be entirely deleted. Which is your position? By your own admission, this crash is notable. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
It's not a vote. Yes, I "admit" that this crash is notable, but my position is that I will not !vote to keep an article that I really do not like. Perhaps others will urge that it be kept. Mandsford (talk) 22:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No one said that this is a vote. This is understood to be a discussion. Your above reply is as ambiguous as the first. Are you advocating that the article be kept or deleted? It's a simple and straight-forward question. Why not simply answer it? Why be so coy about it? This is what I got from your response, however. (And what any reasonable reader would also get.) You agree that the crash is notable and thus merits a Wikipedia article. Yet, at the same time, you do not support keeping notable articles on Wikipedia just because you "don't really like them". Wow. Are Wikipedia readers really supposed to take that position of yours with any seriousness? Does such a statement lend itself to any credibility whatsoever? Is that your belief? That boils down to "I want Wikipedia to only contain articles that I really like, notability issues aside." I would offer to you that the standard in discussing whether articles be kept or deleted centers around notability, not whether individual editors "really like" the article. And -- as I stated earlier -- a more reasoned response in a deletion discussion would be "This article, while written poorly, covers a notable topic. Thus, it should be cleaned up, but not removed." Your argument of keeping only the articles that you "really like" is a standard with which I am unfamiliar. It's rather silly, to be honest. (As a side note, I can see why "they" demanded an Electoral College be written into the US Constitution.) Unreal. Thanks for your, um, response. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
Noted. Mandsford (talk) 01:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You claim that this is "just another DUI case". Which other cases, specifically, have raised national (if not, international) awareness of this cause to the extent that this has? Which other cases, specifically, have prompted legislation to stiffen DUI laws when children are passengers? Which other cases, specifically, have received the level of attention that this one has? Please let me know. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
What attention? It's all gone, there's a trickle of local news concerning her husband, nothing worth of note. As for the legislation, it appears that the bill was already in progress before the accident more stale news. NVO (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(1) You have not answered any of my questions, I see, when I asked you to offer up "similar cases". (2) As to the points you did raise (regarding attention): Hmmmmm ... Let's see what a quick Google search shows us. Not that it's infallible or scientific ... but it is a fairly good barometer. If I use either "Diane Schuler" or "Taconic crash" ... or some such variation ... as the search terms, these are the results.
* When I limit the results to the past day (24 hours), I get 2,130 hits.
* When I limit the results to the past week, I get 66,800 hits.
* When I limit the results to the past month, I get 302,000 hits.
* When I limit the results to Google's "recent results", I get 732,000 hits.
These include local, state, and national coverage. Reliable sources appearing include: MSNBC, The Huffington Post, Newsday Magazine, ABC News, The Associated Press, The New York Daily News, The Miami Herald, The New York Post, Fox News, CBS News, and The Seattle Times, to name a few. Clearly, this refutes your claim that there is no attention to this incident. This refutes your claim that all of the attention to this incident is gone. This refutes your claim that there is only a trickle of coverage about this incident. This refutes your claim that there is only local news coverage of this incident. This refutes your claim that there is nothing worthy of note. Furthermore, you concede that there is indeed coverage on the husband, thus indicating persistent and consistent coverage (i.e., notability of the incident). (3) You also claim "it appears that the bill was already in progress before the accident". To the contrary, the article that I cited above states: "In the wake of the horrific Taconic crash, Gov. Paterson on Thursday will unveil legislation to toughen the laws for drunken driving with kids in the car." It also states: "Paterson will unveil his legislation less than three weeks after the Taconic crash." This New York Daily News article was dated August 13, 2009. This clearly contradicts your claim that the bill was in progress before the crash. In fact, the article explicitly states that Paterson is unveiling this in light of the crash. And three weeks after the crash. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
It's a sad fact, but local politicians do jump at accidents to pursue their agendas. I am in no position to judge governor's real intents, but it is clear that he could use any of recent DUI accidents familiar to his constituency. NVO (talk) 09:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This comment does not make sense. How could the Governor use just any old garden-variety DUI accident to pursue an agenda of legislation that targets specifically children passengers as victims? He would be saying, for example, "In this John Smith DUI case, there were no children passengers at all as victims. And I would like to use this John Smith DUI case to pursue legislation that stiffens the penalties for DUI cases where children passengers are the victims." Makes no sense whatsoever. Also, the intent of the legislator is irrelevant. The relevant point is that this crash prompted legislation, independent of the legislator's underlying motives / intent / agenda. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 7 September 2009)
  • Strong keep, not because the incident was especially tragic, but because it was especially weird and as a result, has received tons of press and public attention, much more than the average fatal collision. The argument that the article should be deleted for having too much detail is ridiculous, as that's a) wholly a content dispute and b) goes to bolster the incident's notability, since these details would not have been reported if a wide number of media sources didn't think them of interest to the public. (The accusation that the timeline was "lifted" from the Journal-News website is both false and inexplicable; the timeline was built gradually and currently cites at least fourteen different sources.) The argument that it should be deleted because reporting on the incident has tapered off, even allowing the benefit of the doubt that that's a true assessment, is still baffling, but I would hope a link to Notability Is Not Temporary resolves that. Coverage of this incident was not limited to a one-time burst of reports that "an accident happened", but has extended to new reporting whenever a new development has arisen in the investigation of the event. Propaniac (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Amen to that! (Joseph A. Spadaro, 6 September 2009)
  • It's 7 weeks after the crash, so WP:NTEMP doesn't really apply. If it is still notable 7 months or 7 years afterward, then it applies. I think it is worthy of mention in the article about the parkway, where indeed there is a nice, succinct paragraph about it; it's probably the most notable traffic accident on that roadway. We have a couple of these a year on Highway 401, often worse than this, and I wouldn't call them lastingly noteworthy. If legislation results from this, then the legislation would be noteworthy and a paragraph about this particular incident as a catalyst for the legislation would be appropriate in that article too, should it come to pass. This incident is also appropriately listed in List of road accidents 2000-2009, and that is where the level of notability should be noticed; while I do not dismiss the tragedy of the deaths and injuries in this case, it is illogical to say this is "very noteworthy" when compared to collisions resulting in much higher death and injury. As noted in the nomination, these sorts of incidents are commonplace, and very, very few are noteworthy enough for their own article. A nasty accident during a slow news cycle just means that lots of stories get generated; it doesn't mean it has any true significance. Risker (talk) 00:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are wholly missing the point. This case is notable not because it was a DWI, not because it was a head-on crash, not because it was a wrong-way driver, and not because so many people perished. Yes ... such events are quite commonplace in the USA. This incident is notable due to the bizarre and strange circumstances all of which aligned to produce this crash. You state that: "We have a couple of these a year on Highway 401, often worse than this". (A) I find that terribly difficult to believe. You have had several cases on Highway 401 that are similar to the Schuler case? That is flat out incorrect. If so, please provide the details that make it similar to the Schuler case. If indeed your Highway 401 cases were similar (i.e., a mother with no drinking history drives drunk on the wrong side of the highway and kills her own 5 children / family members), I am quite certain that we would have heard about it. (B) When you make such a claim, this simply proves my point. You are considering these cases similar because they are DWI's and/or because of the high fatality count. And ... as I stated before ... that comparison is wholly missing the point. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 7 September 2009)
  • I'm not sure why some people seem to be thinking of this incident as "some cars crashed and some people died," and then comparing it to all incidents where some cars crashed and some people died, and saying that since most of those incidents don't get a lot of public attention, this one isn't notable. Are you aware that this incident did get lots of public attention? Even if the incident were precisely comparable to other incidents that were mostly ignored, if one such incident is the subject of a huge amount of news reporting, it becomes notable. (In this particular case, the attention came because it involved an apparently responsible and loving mother who killed her daughter and nieces while driving, for no apparent reason, in the wrong direction on a major highway for nearly two miles without stopping, and it turned out she was filled to the brim with alcohol and narcotics even though everyone who knew her said she rarely drank and never did drugs and appeared sober the last time anybody saw her alive. But none of that is why we can determine it to be a notable incident; it's what led to the press coverage that allows us to establish notability.) I'm pretty sure there's nothing in WP:N that requires incidents to result in passed legislation, or to kill more people than have ever been killed before, in order to be notable. It's about the attention received from the media, which reflects the interest of the public. Propaniac (talk) 00:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As the subject of extensive and continuing media coverage not only about the immediate incident that addresses any BLP1E issues. Ample reliable and verifiable sources establish notability. Alansohn (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Incidentally, a declined speedy does not preclude you from prodding an article. Quite a lot of articles are deleted by prod after it's determined they don't meet the criteria for a speedy delete. Propaniac (talk) 00:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
... except that it's a notable incident. Let's keep the topic at whether or not this is notable. Whether the incident is sad or tragic is not relevant to notability. Whether the content is well written or poorly written is not relvant to notability. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 7 September 2009)
  • Delete Yeah... Sad story but wikipedia is not a newspaper... Str8cash (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep My own edit of the article would look like this. Although it's true that drunk driving accidents happen regularly, this one has attracted attention from TIME Magazine, USA Today, ABC and CBS news, etc. and gotten nationwide press. As with 1988's Carrollton, Kentucky bus collision, where a wrong-way drunk driver killed 27 people, there are examples of DUI that serve as cautionary tales for future generations. Just as the focus of the 1988 crash was on the accident, rather than on the perpetrator, Larry Mahoney, I don't believe that this should become a biography of Diane Schuler. Mandsford (talk) 18:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your reply is confusing ... or, at least, I don't understand what you're saying. Why would you contest speedy deletion proposals every time for this article ... yet, advocate neutrality for this specific AfD deletion proposal? Please clarify. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 8 September 2009)
  • Keep At some point, a particular news item transcends into general notabilty, and admitting it's a subjective call, I think this one has. That being said, the article could certainly use a trimming Vartanza (talk) 05:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: User:Mandsford moved the article to Taconic Parkway Crash. Mandsford also subsequently replaced the article with an entirely new, much shorter version, which I have mostly reverted because I didn't feel the new version adequately supported the notability of the incident, which would obviously be unfair for this discussion. Once it's decided here to keep the article in some form, I am absolutely open (as one of the main editors to the article in its current state) to revising and shortening it considerably, to something in between the current version and Mandsford's linked suggested version. I just didn't think it was fair to suddenly change discussion of an article with 22 sources, to discussion of an article with 3 sources that barely touches on why this is more notable than most other fatal traffic collisions. Propaniac (talk) 23:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The shorter version looks tidy, but it completely removed the stuff that (here I have to side with Joseph A. Spadaro) made it look notable for inclusion. Take out the ticking timebomb and the gory flashbacks and its just another crash that happened a month ago. Perhaps, in case of keep vote, the original detail should stay. NVO (talk) 06:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The version of User:Mandsford (which has since been reverted) is superior to the bloated and goulish original. Nonetheless, the incident is of a local and transient nature (except to those directly affected by it) and is not suitable for a WP article. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC).[reply]
How do you define "local" and "transient"? If you define "local" as "appearing in reliable sources all across the country" ... and you define "transient" as "notable in-depth reliable source coverage that is continuing and persistent" ... then I will agree with you. Otherwise, if you are using the plain-language meaning of these terms, your claim is silly, not credible, and/or wholly misinformed. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 11 September 2009)
Nobody has brought up WP:CIVIL yet, and I think it's because we recognize that you're new to the AfD Forum. The response above, however, goes too far. You really need to stop this tendency to make a hostile response to anyone who happens to disagree with you. Saying "Thanks" at the end does not make a difference. I've was blocked once for uncivil comments, and I can assure you that it is no fun. You have the makings of a good writer and I envision that you will make many good contributions to Wikipedia, but we all need to do our part to keep discussions under control. Mandsford (talk) 13:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, my postings are all quite civil. If people are going to post preposterous claims, then –- yes -– I will certainly call them on that. It has nothing to do with whether or not they agree or disagree with my point of view. I am not under any delusion that I am the King of Wikipedia and everyone must agree with my opinion. In my opinion, it is simply preposterous to make the statement that this crash received only local coverage. In my opinion, it is simply preposterous to make the statement that coverage of this crash was transient. Under the normal meanings of those terms, such claims are simply ridiculous -- and factually false. And, if someone dares to assert such preposterous claims, then -– yes –- I will certainly call them out to defend said claims. Questioning statements that are factually untrue in no way equates to incivility. Requesting that such statements be backed up / defended / explained -- when they fly in the face of the facts -- does not equate to incivility. My above post can be restated to read: (1) How are you using the term "local" to describe this incident, when its coverage has in fact appeared in reliable sources all across the country? You see, I myself would use the word "national" -– not "local" -- to describe that type of coverage. And I believe that many (most) others would also. My above post can also be restated to read: (2) How are you using the term "transient" to describe coverage of this incident, when it has in fact received notable in-depth reliable source coverage that is continuing and persistent (all these months after the incident)? You see, I myself would use the word "continuous" -– not "transient" -– to describe that type of coverage. And I believe that many (most) others would also. So, please tell me exactly what is uncivil about asking such relevant and reasonable questions? No – I don’t don any kid gloves to call a spade a spade. Such statements are absurd, and I will call the editor out on it. If he (or you) is offended, so be it. My statements and my points are valid and reasonable and deserve an answer or, at least, deserve consideration. There is nothing uncivil about my choice to not wear kid gloves, so as to not offend an editor who makes such absolutely false statements. This crash has received local and transient coverage! Yeah, right. Not on this planet, as I have witnessed it. But, that's just my perception. To which I am entitled. And I invite the claimant of the statement to back up said statement. Too bad if people are "offended" when they are asked to back up / defend preposterous (and flat-out false) statements. That's their problem, not mine. My questions are valid and civil. If you purposely read incivility into it, that's your issue – not mine. I stand by my comments, as I have every right to do so. From my perspective ... calling the coverage of this crash either "local" or "transient" –- let alone both –- is indeed silly, not credible, and/or wholly misinformed. And I challenge the claimant to back up his statements. I would also proffer that many people would share my perception ... and/or that it would be entirely reasonable to do so. I don't live under a rock. As I said in my Post Number 1 (above), this entire deletion debate really falls under the WP:Snowball clause. Some editors, however, like a lot of "process" and like to hear themselves talk. And, so, we are endlessly forced to defend why a valid article like this is notable and belongs in Wikipedia. So, to re-iterate ... from all that I have seen ... how can this coverage be described as "local" or as "transient"? I await a reply. I may be misinformed. And I believe that that would only be the case if I do not understand the plain-language meanings of the terms "local" and "transient". And I am open to such possibility. If anyone cares to offer the definition of those terms ("local" and "transient") and how specifically they are applicable here, I am more than interested to hear. Furthermore ... if anyone is being uncivil ... it is you towards me! First: you purposefully inject your own emotions / interpretations (i.e., that are offensive to you) into my comments. And then you have the nerve to call my comments "offensive"! Unreal. When it was you, yourself, who injected the offending emotion in the first place. Second: you deny (or attempt to do so) me of my right to ask valid questions and challenge others' claims and statements. Which, by the way, is the very definition of a discussion / debate. Which, by the way, is what this page is. Third: You indicate that I have no right to conclude my comments with a "thank you" ... or that doing so violates incivility rules. Simply because you yourself are injecting a sarcastic tone into the term "thank you" (that is not there to begin with). I challenge you to review all of my posts. I end 99.999999% of my posts with a "thank you". Which, by the way, is the very definition of civility ... not incivility. Unreal. Sometimes, it feels like the inmates are running the asylum. I love how people can argue that white is black or up is down, with a straight face. And then they get "offended" when they are called on it. Simply unreal. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 10 September 2009)
In addition ... three post-script comments in brief. (1) You describe my post as "hostile". My post is merely black-and-white words typed on a page / computer screen. There is no emotion. And there is no hostility. If there are any emotions or hostility anywhere in the neutral black-and-white posting, said emotions and hostility are there only by you injecting them in there. That is, you are interpreting neutral statements made by me as being hostile. I cannot control how you choose to interpret the black-and-white facially neutral words that I type. And, I would proffer: you cannot / should not inject the hostility into the neutral statements and then turn around and complain that they are hostile. They are only hostile because you think so. And because you have opted to add that emotion into my otherwise emotion-less and facially neutral comments. (2) You invoke that we all need to do our part to keep discussions under control. I agree. And I am doing my part. I am keeping this discussion under control by questioning and challenging statements made by editors. Especially false statements. This crash isn't "local" simply because some editor decides to type the five letters l, o, c, a, and l in describing the crash. And if he does indeed do that, then I will request that he defend or back up that claim ... which flies in the face of all the facts. So, I do indeed see that my questioning helps as my part to keep this discussion under control. (3) Here is another blatant falsity with which I disagree from the prior editor. The editor claims "this incident is of a local and transient nature (except to those directly affected by it)." At last check ... the Governor of New York instigated legislation because of this crash. All citizens of the state of New York would be subject to said legislation. The legislation would be / is debated by all senators and representatives in New York ... who represent all citizens of New York. So, how -- pray tell -- does an incident that extends its reach in such a broad and sweeping manner get described as not notable "except to those directly affected by it"? Is it me who has gone mad? There are 20 million people living in New York. All of them are affected by these laws. Not to mention the millions of others who don’t live in – but who visit – New York. How can anyone make the claim that this incident is only notable to the 8 people directly affected (and their family / friends)? You see, I myself cannot agree with that statement. But, that’s just me. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 11 September 2009).
I agree that this article should not be named Diane Schuler, as this is an article about the crash and not a biography of Schuler. However, the current title needs to be tweaked, please. First, we should use the "real" name of the Parkway ... which, I believe, is Taconic State Parkway (adding in the word "State"). Second, we should include some designation (such as the year 2009, for example) since there has not been only one crash on the Taconic State Parkway. Third, the word "crash" should be lower-case, not capitalized, in the title. Therefore, I suggest 2009 Taconic State Parkway crash. Any thoughts? Thank you. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 11 September 2009)
I agree with your suggestion and have revised my recommendation accordingly. Location (talk) 17:40, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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