Talk:Desiccated thyroid extract

Aargh. Desperately needs sourcing and NPOV. The historical material is good, though, and can be moved to hypothyroidism where it belongs. JFW | T@lk 07:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited this for NPOV now. The original author is encouraged to link his statements to his sources, as I do not own these books and cannot verify which statement is made where. JFW | T@lk 10:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

What is NPOV?? Also, I know that references can include websites, but am unsure how to put them in the article. After the sentence "Yet, the experience of patients reported on various interactive thyroid groups.........and many other positive results", the references would be http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/dt/dtexp2pr.php and http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/stories-of-others/.

Under treatment protocol, and after the sentence about suglingual would be this: http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Colon%20Health/lea13.htm. As far as the statement about multi-dosing, that comes from reading patients comments on the Yahoo group Natural Thyroid Hormones Users. How is that cited?? It is http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormones/

The same is true for the comment about generic thyroid being reported by patients as weaker than Armour and others--that comes from the comments of patients on the Natural Thyroid Hormones Users group mentioned above.

The comment from Forest Labs about T2, T1, and calcitonin not being removed come from talking to Daryl R. Wesche of the Forest Pharmaceutical Professional Affairs Department. How is that cited?

NPOV is the most important Wikipedia policy. It bears reading that article closely, as most discussions about appropriateness of content revolve around that policy and WP:NOR/WP:V.

If you have a quick look at the article you will see that I've embraced my references with <ref> and </ref> tags. Wikipedia:Footnotes contains more details.

On the whole I would avoid making generalising statements. "The experience of patients reported on various interactive thyroid groups" needs further support. Citing webpages is a bit troublesome, because one never knows whom the author of that webpage represents (himself, 100 of 10,000 people). That dilemma improves if the page is of an official organisation or there are clear indications that the views expressed are the aggregate of a representative group (e.g. a working party, a poll).

This is an interesting article. Are you sure natural desiccated thyroid hormones is a good title? Wouldn't thyroid extract be a more accessible title? JFW | T@lk 09:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, for most patients, no one would know what you were talking about if "thyroid extract" was used, even though it's a legitimate medical description. Now, the common term is "natural thyroid hormones", thus the title here being Natural Desiccated Thyroid Hormones.

As far as the "experience of patients reported on various interactive groups...." under the Controversies heading needing further support---citations to support that sentence can only come from citing these groups, I fear. Why? Because there is a huge movement going on with patients talking to each other about their experiences ON these internet groups: Yahoo Groups like the popular Natural Thyroid Hormones Users, the Hypothyroidism group sponsored by Cure Zone, the Thyroid group of Mary Shoman, and many other smaller but active groups. They are not reporting their experiences in books; they are reporting it in the huge amount of conversation going on in these groups, which can be viewed.

Also, they are reporting their experience (which is contrary to what doctors say about natural thyroid hormones) on the www.stopthethyroidmadness.com website, plus the thyroid.about.com thyroid website, and the www.altsupportthyroid.org website, and many other smaller sites.

Granted, it's a new phenomena, but it's real to our modern society with the abounding use of web groups and websites to communicate.

You state: "Citing webpages is a bit troublesome, because one never knows whom the author of that webpage represents (himself, 100 of 10,000 people). That dilemma improves if the page is of an official organisation or there are clear indications that the views expressed are the aggregate of a representative group." The websites definitely do appear to be the views of a representative group--thyroid patients on natural thyroid hormones--even if there are no clear-cut authorized 'officialdom'. The authors appear to have brought these views and 'stated experiences' together to form the 'website'. I think the Stop the Thyroid Madness is a good example of that. Plus, the websites themselves have their forums to continue the talk.

I will read the NPOV article, plus the one on footnotes. Thank you for steering me. I'm still unclear how to add them to what you've already done (and thank you for that), but will hopefully figure it out! I am new to this. Doodlebug1 (talk · contribs)

I understand your point about the naming issue. Is this the official generic name of all Armour-like products?

As I am not an endocrinologist I have no way of knowing how "popular" the use of natural desiccated thyroid hormones is. But I very frequently encounter patients who are hypothyroid, and most are doing just fine on 50-75 μg/24h of levothyroxine. In fact, I wasn't aware of a large support base for natural thyroid supplements until I'd read your contributions. This makes me wonder about the currency of the view that levothyroxine is inadequate and that TSH is not a useful blood test.

I'll have a stab at converting your references to footnotes. JFW | T@lk 18:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reply: Thank you for all you assistance (and I'm bolding this to get it to stand out). Yes, patients are calling all Armour-like products Natural Thyroid Hormones. Not sure where it started, unless it was with Mary Shoman, a thyroid advocate, or Janie, the owner of the Natural Thyroid Hormone site on Yahoo and another thyroid patient advocate on the Stop the Thyroid Madness site. Yes, the use of Natural Thyroid Hormones is becoming quite popular, apparently, because patients are stating that they never got resolution of symptoms on levothyroxine, and have gotten it on Armour. When they informed their doctors of their continued symptoms while on levothyroxine, they have consistently been put on anti-depressants, statins, and numerous other medications which only masked the inferior treatment of levothyroxine. On dessicated thyroid, they are stating that have gotten resolution of those symptoms, plus others. In fact, when you say that most of your patients are doing fine on levothyroxine, you might want to see what patients are saying on these sites. They are also stating that going by the TSH has kept them sick, and that even includes on the Armour-like products. When they say they are rid of all their former hypo symptoms, they have a suppressed TSH, yet no hyper symptoms whatsoever.

Removal of T2/T1/calcitonin

Referring to a company spokesperson without a verifiable source makes it impossible for any other reader to verify this statement. If Forest Labs says Armour contains T2/T1/calcitonin doesn't that imply that it does indeed contain these hormones? JFW | T@lk 19:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reply: JFW, I'm unclear what you mean about the company spokesman. I included the Armour Contact page so anyone can call and verify from Daryl what he stated. So, it's not "impossible" to verify it! The reason I included that info is because of what you removed---that there is an ongoing rumor that desiccated thyroid like Armour ONLY contains T4 and T3 (i.e. that the T2, T1 and calcitonin are removed.

Need help on the following

In the paragraph titled Controversies and in the first sentence "It has been said by medical professionals that natural desiccated thyroid like Armour is inconsistent from dose-to-dose, dangerous, unstable, hard to dose, unreliable, and outdated.", these are again reports made by patients about their doctors on these patient-to-patient talk groups. These are very common reports by patients about how their doctors described desiccated thyroid. Perhaps I can state "Patients report their doctors as saying that natural desiccated thyroid like Armour is...." and then cite the group. In fact, I would say that most everything stated under the Controversies heading comes from the discussions between patients on most of the groups on the net, including the Yahoo groups, the About.com forums, and many others.

By the way, you added that the Yahoo Natural Thyroid Hormones group is related to the Stop the Thyroid Madness group. It is not. The STTM group has it's own forum, which is not the Yahoo group. It's the same subject, but they are two totally different groups, just as the other thyroid groups on the net are.

Also, I am trying to add the same #6 as a reference to information under Controversies, but all I get is a #7 which ends up repeating #6 in the References below. I think I remember there is a way to avoid that??

I think the Controversies is a good reality to the Encylopedic discussion about Natural Desiccated Thyroid Hormones, and am doing it from a "Neutral Point Of View", but am forced to cite the groups where patients talk about this over and over, since there appears to be no book to verify what they are talking about.