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Wikimedia Commons

At Talk:St. John's Park#Article, including lead, should be free of original research/syntheisis there is question as to whether Wikimedia Commons photo of a No Trespassing sign is reliable/verifiable reference used to support the statement:

it is not legally accessible to pedestrians

Reference in question: Beyond My Ken (January 5, 2015). "File:St. John's Park no trespassing sign.jpg". Wikimedia Commons. Retrieved 2015-01-12.

Djflem (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Djflem's statement of the situation is givs the wrong impression. The actual argument is this: the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey owns some property. On the fence around the property, they have placed a "No trespassing" sign. Thus the PANYNJ has "published" the sign to the public, and it can therefore be cited to show that the property is not legally accessible. The photograph I took of the sign is then in the nature of verification of the existence and placement of the sign, to show that I have not made it up out of whole cloth.

So, "Commons" isn't what's being cited as a reliable source, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is being cited as a reliable source for their own regulations, as publicly displayed in the sign, and my photograph is offered as verification of the objective reality of the sign.

That seems pretty straightforward to me. BMK (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, here are the diffs from 13 days ago, when Pburka first explained this to Djflem: [1], [2]. BMK (talk) 01:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

The existence of a 'no trespassing' sign on a property is in no shape or form evidence that the property is in fact not legally accessible to pedestrians. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Why is that? In any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, the posting of a "no trespassing" sign serves as legal notice that the owner does not want anyone on the property without permission. Without such a sign, or alternately one sayong "Posted: Private Property", it's possible that the police, prosecutors and courts will not aceept a criminal complaint of trespassing, and that a civil complaint will fail due to lack of proper advance notification. Given then, I'd say that the sign is very much evidence that the labelled property is legally inaccessible. BMK (talk) 02:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Aside from that, I think you're rather missing the crux: that by posting the sign, the Port Authority is publishing their intention concerning the property, that no one should trespass on it. Since the property belongs to them, they certainly have the right to limit who can and cannot be on the property, and the article can cite that. BMK (talk) 02:28, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

A sign may very possibly indicate what the owner wants. It isn't however evidence that what the owner wants is legally enforcible (or even evidence that the person responsible for putting up the sign is in fact the owner for that matter). Any assertion that a sign is proof of legal rights is WP:OR plain and simple. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I very much disagree, especially since, in this case, the Port Authority is a bi-state governmental agency with its own police force to enforce its will. What your arguing, then, is a stop sign placed on a city street corner is not indicative of the city's assertion that you mist legally stop there. I think there's no way that makes sense, and no way citing it as proof that a stop is required can be considered to be OR. BMK (talk) 03:01, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Police forces are supposed to enforce law, not will - though whether they always do so in practice is perhaps not best discussed here. Anyway, you are citing something (a sign) for something it does not state, based on that sign in combination with your interpretation of other sources. That is synthesis plain and simple, in my opinion. And since there is no point in engaging in a "yes it is, no it isn't" style dialogue here, I suggest we wait for further opinion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

In this case "will" = 'law" or, at least, legally enforceable regulation.

But I agree, let's see what others say. BMK (talk) 03:56, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with others that a sign can certainly be a reliable source--when it is visible from a public place, it is published, and could be reliable if it meets the ordinary criteria. Just think of informational signs placed by the National Park Service, for example. There seems to be no dispute that the sign is placed by the Port Authority. The case here, then, is solely whether "no trespassing" equates to "not legally accessible to pedestrians" without editor synthesis, which is a question of WP:OR. In my view, a simple "no trespassing" signs is too ambiguous to support that statement. "No trespassing" can mean "do not enter except when the gate is open," or "do not enter after hours," for example. "No trespassing" simply asserts that passage across the area is not free, which is altogether different than "not legally accessible." For the latter claim, a different source is necessary. Knight of Truth (talk) 04:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

So, I pick up a book which I want to use as a source. The title page says near the middle of the page "The Bastion of Truth" with "Edward Rudick" under it. At the bottom of the page it says "Harper & Row" and underneath that "1972". Note that the title page does not identify what any of these phrases or numbers mean, but because I'm intimately familiar with the conventions of book publishing, I cite it as a source with "title=The Bastion of Truth", "author=Edward Rudick", publisher="Harper & Row", and "date=1972."

Are we seriously saying that my real world knowledge of publishing conventions which allows me to translate the meaning of the title page is an example of OR? If not, how is it any different from my knowledge of signage convention that "No Trespassing" means "Don't come in here"?

Really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just sensing that the concept of "OR" is being stretched far beyond its intended purpose, which is to prevent original research of editors from being published in Wikipedia articles. There is no "original research" involved in the example here (any more than there is "original research in finding sources by researching online or in a library), only the reading of the sign and the reporting of it existence ith the application of everyday common "Sky is blue" sense. BMK (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

When I say "original research," I mean you're adding a meaning to a source that is not evidently there. It is not a "sky is blue" issue because, as I said, "no trespassing" does not universally mean "no access without express authorization." Many places that are perfectly legal for the public to enter (within certain restrictions imposed by the owner) have "no trespassing" signs posted somewhere. It would be different, say, if we were looking at an "employees only" or similar, more specific sign. Without specifics, it is a legal interpretation that in this context "no trespassing" means that the area is entirely off-limits to pedestrians, and it is not for editors to provide such interpretations. Knight of Truth (talk) 06:00, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, "no trespassing" does universally mean "no access without authorization" That is exactly and precisely what it means. The authorization can be express or implicit. I can't imagine how anyone would get the impression that it means anything other than that. BMK (talk) 06:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

That's just my point. If "no trespassing" does not mean an area is inaccessible (e.g. if there is routine authorization under circumstances), then the sign does not support the statement as written. Knight of Truth (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with AndyTheGrump above. Someone putting up a sign does not indicate that the terms on the sign are automatically legally binding or even true. I have myself run into situations where companies or agencies have attempted to insist that an area is not legally acceptable because of a place sign, despite the sign being in obvious contravention to the law-- case in point, many years ago, when taking photographs of an oil refinery in rural Illinois from the shoulder of a state road, security attempted to force me to leave for trespassing, pointing out the "NO TRESPASSING" sign. Of course, a private company cannot simply assert authority over a public roadway, the sign was inoperative, and taking its existence as indicative of a legal fact was incorrect. Simply taking a picture of the sign in this case and attempting to use it as proof of a legal statement is synthesis; the picture of the sign is evidence (assuming we can accept that the picture is actually what it purports to be) of the existence of the sign and could also be construed to be evidence that the agent who put it up is asserting it's legally true (this is a stretch), but the sign is not, ipso facto, a legal fact. The sign is meant to indicate a legal fact, but does not demonstrate it. siafu (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe that you are taking into account that the entity posting the "No trespassing" sign is a governmental agency, with its own police (who are peace officers) to enforce its edicts. That makes it a bit different than a private company or citizen posting such a sign. Their postings have the force of law. BMK (talk) 07:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Taking a picture of the sign to serve as verifiable proof of a fact is, as I explained, WP:SYNTH and also could be construed as WP:OR. Also, having one's own police force does not make it different: many universities have their own police forces, who are bonded peace officers, but this does not suddenly empower them make new laws. siafu (talk) 13:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you're entirely ignoring the inconvenient fact that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is a bi-state governmental agency empowered to do exactly that, make regulations that have the force of law and which can -- and will -- be enforced by their police officers.

What I've seen in this discussion is very interesting, editors bending over backwards -- in their own versions of OR (or, as the rest of the world would call it "unfounded speculation") -- to interpret a sign issued by a government agency in every possible way except the most reasonable, logical and common sense one: that it is announcing that no one is allowed to tresspass on the property, and that the governmental agency will enforce that warning.' For those of you of that rather peculiar state of mind, I wish you luck when you ignore a similar sign in your area and climb over a fence to play Frisbee. BMK (talk) 01:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps both parties would be willing to consider more literal alternative wording, such as:

but access is prevented by a gated fence and a "No Trespassing" sign.

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:02, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not a gated fence, just a fence, but the point is a good one. In fact, the fence does not surround the property -- it can't, because it has a bunch of exits from the Holland Tunnel and the cars need to get out, so it can't be fenced off completely. This is exactly the reason why it needs to be described as legally inaccessible, because it is, in actual fact, very easily physical accessible to anyone willing to cross two lanes of traffic. I know, I've done it, and took pictures from there -- and was warned for doing so and told to leave. To say that the exit plaza is "not accessible to pedestrians" is somewhat deceptive, which is why I opted for "not legally accessible to pedestrians", which is more accurate. BMK (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Great info BMK, and congrats for getting pictures of public property despite the discouragement. A 'No Trespassing' sign (for which the Commons photo is surely a reliable source) doesn't make anything 'legally inaccessible'. We don't know what the law is in force, and it has surely never been tested in a court. We can say that the Port Authority prohibits access, but we don't know if it has an enforceable bylaw, regulation or common law right to stop you going there. These are the kind of loopholes that vigilante litterpickers and guerrilla gardeners exploit. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Again, bending over backwards to interpret the sign in every conceivable way except the common, reasonable, obvious and logical one is OR, not vice versa. BMK (talk) 19:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

One more for "the Port Authority prohibits access". That is, hopefully, a compromise that everyone can accept, and, frankly, the difference is not worth fighting over. --GRuban (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Not accurate. The Port Authority has posted a sign that states "No Trespassing." Do we have sources for more than that? Hipocrite (talk) 21:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Cambridge University Press and Washington Post on Islamophobia in Steven Emerson article

There is a debate on the Steven Emerson article on if two sources are reliable in claiming that Steven Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia. The sources are:

1. Hammer, Julie; Safi, Amid (2013). The Cambridge Companion to American Islam. Cambridge University Press. p. 8. ISBN 9781107002418. Retrieved 22 January 2015. Islamophobe[s] Steven Emerson (the discredited "terrorism expert" who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma city bombings committed by Timothy McVeigh)
2. "9 questions about Birmingham that Fox News was too embarrassed to ask". Washington Post. Retrieved 22 January 2015. Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia in the past.

The exact quote these sources cite are

"...and has been criticized for his inaccuracies, Islamophobia (references) and for saying that..."

User:ChrisGualtieri is arguing that since the Cambridge University Press book has a footnote referencing ThinkProgress that the book is not a reliable source in this context. He further argues that the Washington Post piece is a blog and therefore not a reliable source. [3] [4] [5]

As of yet, he has not been able to explain why the Washington Post piece, which was written by a paid foreign correspondence reporter for the Washington Post in their World Views published section is a Blog, but he continuously asserts that it is in fact a blog and thus not a reliable source. Please advise, are these reliable sources? Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course they are. ChrisGualtieri often questions reliable sources such as these, based on a misguided and extremely narrow interpretation of our content policies, asserting that BLPs should contain only "facts" and not opinions. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Cwobeel claims all that is required is a source for inclusion, he adds this material because he thinks that calling someone a bigot is a problem only if it is unsourced. It will take more than a label cited to "Think Progress" in a Cambridge University Press book to stick. I explained that the WaPo source should be in the body and not both in the lead to label someone a bigot. The WP:BATTLE tendencies here are repulsive and using Salon and other poor sources to directly attribute someone as a bigot and writings as a form of hate speech is unacceptable. Just because someone makes an accusation doesn't make it true or fitting for a BLP - by that logic you can go and drag up a string of nasties at almost any historic or political figure. How many times did MLK get called a nigger? Might as well reference a single sentence in Oxford and slap that on the article. It would be crude, but that is a parallel to which we see here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Could this be closed as the wrong forum. This is a BLPN issue and BLPN#Steven Emerson is still in progress? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

look at the differences above User:ChrisGualtieri, YOU were the one who SPECIFICALLY and REPEATEDLY argued that these sources were not reliable sources. The WP:BLPN#Steven Emerson is dealing with other things, but right now on this board I'm bringing up your REPEATED assertions that the Cambridge Guide to American Islam, and the Washington Post were not reliable sources. Again, your differences and arguments are above. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I explained and this is a BLP issue because it labels a person as a bigot. How is that not a BLP issue? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not here to discuss that, I'm here to discuss your claims and repeated assertions (cited in differences above) that the sources themselves are not reliable. You are welcome to discuss the fact that multiple reliable sources have documented the fact that Steven Emerson is criticized for being an Islamophobe on the WP:BLPN, but HERE we are discussing your interpretation of WP:RS and your statement to me to re-read WP:IRS in reference to these two articles. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 03:58, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

And comparing Martin Luther King to Emerson is a massive stretch, and your use if the n word to illustrate your point is atrocious, to say it kindly. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• (Copied over) For the CC source, the line being used is it for the entire book. Not another mention or aspect of Emerson and it has to use a Think Progress source for that twisted gem. I'd be willing to consider it being a suitable source if actually discussed Emerson more than citing Think Progress which was itself cherry-picking. Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress and was cited on a panel consisted of former Ambassador Dore Gold, Steven Emerson, and Jonathan Winer in 2003.[6] Or in mentioned cases in 2001.[7] Official meetings in 2005.[8] Since that "gaff" Emerson has "testified and briefed Congress dozens of times on terrorist financing and operational networks of al-Qaeda".[9] He is a recognized expert by the United States Government[10] A single sentence which is so thoroughly disproven by over a decade of continued work and council at the highest levels of the United States Government - discredited? Hardly. The man may make mistakes, but he is not the bigot or disgrace that trivial mention makes. Is that trivial mention in a book really acceptable to call him a bigot - when it cannot even spare a full sentence about his actual credentials? The answer is a resounding no. For the WaPo blog - it is just weak and uses Twitter to mirror it, gosh is it weak. I placed that up against the American Educational Trust and the United States Congress volumes. His work can be cited as inspiring Islamophobia, but calling the person a bigot is an issue and I agreed with the original editor who highlighted it on BLPN. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

wikipedia doesn't have a merit system when it comes to inserting sourced criticism. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 06:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: I just checked each of those linked URLs you provided; it appears you have seriously misunderstood that information when you concluded "Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress...". In reality, anyone can offer to appear or be called as a witness at a hearing by contacting a committee holding a relevant hearing, and Emerson wasn't "cited by the United States Congress", his statements were simply recorded in the Congressional Record as required by procedural law. He's not a "recognized expert by the United States Government"; he is simply whatever he claims to be, as the Committee asks him how he should be described in the record -- and much of the flowery descriptions of him in your links are word-for-word copies from his personal website profile. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment, while Cambridge University Press is a reliable source in and of itself, regarding the passage of the book that is cited to a non-reliable source thinkprogress, what can be verified from the reliable source is that thinkprogress says... (attributed opinion).
  The Washington Post does publish blogs, but generally are vetted through an editor, therefore unless a blog can be found not to be vetted, and as Washington Post is generally seen as meeting criteria set forth in WP:IRS the blog can be seen as meeting WP:NEWSBLOG.
  This is in no way saying these sources should be used in the article in question, just my opinion on these two potential reliable sources. BLP issues should be discussed at the appropriate noticeboard. G'day.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I agree with RightCowLeftCoast that ThinkProgress cannot be cited in Wikipedia as a reliable source for assertion of fact, only attributed opinion. Information asserted as fact in a ThinkProgress article can't appear in a Wikipedia article unless it is first vetted by a quality reliable source, preferably an academic source. The scholarly work published by Cambridge University easily meets that requirement. Remember that we Wikipedia editors cannot use sources of lesser or unknown quality, so we depend on these higher quality academic sources to sift through all relevant information resources (even articles in ThinkProgress, primary sources, personal interviews, website data, etc.), rigorously research and vet it, and submit it for review and publication in a source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy — only then can we assert the information in Wikipedia's voice as factual. These requirements have been met by the two sources listed above; applying attribution is not required, and could actually mislead readers into thinking the factual assertion is mere opinion. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - while the Cambridge University Press is considered a reliable publisher, the actual source in question, The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, is co-authored by the controversial professor of Islamic Studies, Omid Safi. [11] [12] [13] [14]. The book mentions Emerson in passing, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe. [15] The same contentious material further discredits Emerson by inaccurately stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing which is an inaccurate accusation. Emerson actually said, ``This was done with the intent to inflict as many casualties as possible, Emerson said on CBS. ``That is a Mideastern trait. [16] The bigoted label and false statements in RS are why the contentious statements are unacceptable per BLP. Atsme☯^Consult 05:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Those sources don't demonstrate anything particularly controversial about Safi; rather, they show that his views are pretty mainstream and uncontroversial. In both cases the briefness of the mention in the source is either explicitly or implicitly alluding to other sources that have given a more in-depth discussion (eg. googling brings up Islamophobia in America: The Anatomy of Intolerance), so we could either cite Cambridge and the WaPo, or other sources. I might suggest "criticized as Islamophobic", but don't find such a change necessary. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
  • the actual source is in question — No, it is not — and I checked your links. My favorite was your citation to the screed against "Barack Hussein Obama" that you found by searching Google Books for "Omid Safi is anti-Semitic". You do realize that book is published by Tate Publishing & Enterprises, right? That's the vanity publisher someone goes to, and pays to publish crap, after all legitimate publishers refuse it. You cite that to discredit the oldest academic publisher in the world? That brought a smile to my face. The book mentions Emerson in passing — No, it doesn't. The description is actually cited, which means a little more than "just passing" thought went in to it. incorrectly stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing... — No, it's not incorrect. From the source you linked: It looked to him like the work of Muslim terrorists, he said. Ooops? He also said, "Oklahoma City, I can tell you, is probably considered one of the largest centers of Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East." Maybe he was talking about those Jewish-Hawaiian Islamic radicals, not the Muslim ones; I guess I won't know until you produce a full transcript. But the source you provided supports the book, rather than show it was incorrect. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but the "oldest academic publisher in the world" published a book that was co-authored by a controversial professor of Islamic studies who inaccurately stated what Emerson said. I can't see how that could possibly be acceptable in a BLP. It was passing mention using a (not very collegiate) bigoted slur describing Emerson as an Islamophobe, and further defames him with an incorrect statement - the discredited "terrorism expert" who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma city bombings committed by Timothy McVeigh, citing Think Progress as their source. Forget the smile I brought to your face - that book should bring tears to your eyes. Watch the Emerson interview and read the transcript from that 20 year old CBS interview so you'll at least know what he said. As for your criticism of the sources I used, it brought a smile to my face. Have a good evening. Atsme☯^Consult 08:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Apology accepted, Atsme. The book was co-authored by more than a dozen professors you mean, and you've failed to show that any of them are "controversial" (not that it would matter), and you've failed to point to an "inaccurate" statement with evidence as to why it is supposedly inaccurate. And the text we're discussing isn't "citing Think Progress as their source", it is citing an article by a reporter which was published there, and itself contains numerous additional reference citations - so we're still left waiting for you to explain a policy-compliant objection. Still waiting. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Books, academics, op-eds and blocks are reliable sources for their own opinions, which seems to be the main dispute here. As long as you clearly report and attribute opinions in the text (not a footnote) and the opinion is otherwise notable and part of balance coverage, I don't think it is helps the editorial discussion to delve into reliability any more deeply. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Hrothulf, we aren't discussing any of those, so you have misunderstood the main dispute. We're discussing the Cambridge Companion to American Islam (you'll see it linked at the top of this section), which is a reliable source for the assertion of fact. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Japan Today?

I recently removed a false citation of the online newspaper Japan Today from the article Ainu people. In that case, JT was named inline as the source, but the actual JT article stated that it was a reprint of an article from a magazine that explicitly admits to not fact-checking. (I added the details on the talk page.) I'm still a little concerned about other articles citing this source, though: JT has explicitly borrowed over 400 articles from Metropolis, which doesn't fact-check. I don't know how to search all English Wikipedia articles for this citation (a lot of articles include the text "In Japan today, it is ..." and the like), but Ethnic issues in Japan currently cites it 4 times, and Interac (Japan) three times. Their "About" page says they translate articles from Japanese sources, but they don't indicate how they mark translations off from their own material -- this is concerning because an accurate translation can't be edited for fact-checking purposes -- and they don't indicate that fact-checking is what they do. The first translated article I found on searching (again, they don't make it easy) is taken from a Japanese blog (WP:SELFPUB), but doesn't specify such in its translation -- it just makes itself look like a normal newspaper article. I'm also wondering what their advertising policy means when it says "Japan Today offers the following advertising services to companies seeking to reach foreigners both within and outside Japan: [...] advertorials (separate coverage may also be made by a foreign reporter)" (『ジャパン・トゥデイ』では、国内外の外国人に訴求されたい企業様に向けて以下のような広告商品をご提供しています。 [...] 記事広告（外国人専属記者による別途取材も可）, "Japan Tudei" dewa, kokunaigai no gaikokujin ni sokyū saretai kigyō-sama ni mukete ika no yō-na kōkokushōhin o go-teikyō shiteimasu: [...] kiji-kōkoku (gaikokujin senzoku kisha ni yoru betto shuzai mo ka)). (Unlike their translations, advertorials appear to at least be marked as such.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:21, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

A publisher does not conifer truth and accuracy. Something of dubious origin does not become "reliable" because of re-publication or by mirroring in another (better) publication. And that better publication does not certainly become the true "origin" of such material by the act of mere reprinting. In such cases, the origin should be cited for transparency at minimum. The true origin or any faults with the material can not be diminished or diverted by arguing that it was "republished in a more reliable source" under said circumstances. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Japan Today is a blog, and while they sometimes carry reporting, much of what's posted there is personal opinion. It's absolutely not reliable, and shouldn't be used as a source except when it is quoted as a noteworthy blog (for example, a product review). Shii (tock) 07:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Um, Shii, it calls itself an online newspaper, it looks like a newspaper, and it has editors. I think that's different from a blog. It's true that it carries a lot of material sourced elsewhere – wire service stories, press releases, and translations of material from Japanese newspapers, magazines, and blogs. It's a low-budget operation. The same is true of many other online newspapers, which are essentially aggregators. In practical terms, if the original source is indicated, I think it should be treated the same way as other aggregator-type newspapers. The reliability of any particular story depends on the original source.

I'm also fairly dubious about the idea that a reporter's statements about Japanese history are nothing more than opinion. Sure, it would be preferable to cite a renowned historian about how the Ainu were treated in Edo-period Japan. But this is what reporters do. They read books by historians and report their findings. In practical terms I think it's going to be difficult to exclude statements by reporters about matters that have also been discussed in books by historians. – Margin1522 (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It's really not a newspaper in the way we understand that on this noticeboard. It's a blog that copies and pastes a lot of stories. Shii (tock) 04:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

That is correct, it is an unreliable online publication, like everything operated by GPlus Media.

When they first started the "newspaper", they had subscribed to the English language version of the respected and reliable Kyodo news wire serve (like an AP service), but they subsequently dropped that and turned into more of a gossipy forum.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 11:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Safety of electronic cigarettes

Postgraduate Medical Journal

1. A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that e-cigarettes have concentrated liquids that are packed in colorful containers and combined with flavors that appear to be made to attract children. The flavors include Gummy Bears and bubble gum. It was concluded that it is recommended that e-cigarettes be kept in a safe place, where children and pets do not have access them.
2. A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that the proponents of e-cigarettes assert that nicotine is "as safe as caffeine".it has become clear that this is not true.
3. A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that proponents frequently assert that e-cigarettes is only water vapor.this is not true.

• McKee, M. (2014). "Electronic cigarettes: peering through the smokescreen". Postgraduate Medical Journal. 90 (1069): 607–609. doi:10.1136/postgradmedj-2014-133029. ISSN 0032-5473. PMID 25294933.

Is the [ Postgraduate Medical Journal] reliable to use at Safety of electronic cigarettes for the claims above. According to WP:RS/MC, Being a "medical source" is not an intrinsic property of the source itself; a source becomes a medical source only when it is used to support a medical claim. It is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge. For the non-medical claims above I think this source is reliable for the claims. For example, stating that there are flavors that include Gummy Bears and bubble gum and claims made by advocates or proponents are non-medical claims.

According to WP:RSOPINION, Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers. When using them, it is better to explicitly attribute such material in the text to the author to make it clear to the reader that they are reading an opinion. I prefer to include in-text attribution to the source as above for the non-medical claims. QuackGuru (talk) 04:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

There has already been a long discussion on this source link QuackGuru has not informed the other editors involved of bringing this here. The source is an Editorial and he is seeking to use it on a medical page, in a medical section. AlbinoFerret 05:36, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

In terms of reliability, an editorial in a journal (much different than a newspaper) would be a hazy middle ground between a primary source and a review article. The article is still doing a review in a secondary source fashion, but authors tend to be able to be allowed more flexibility it stating their own opinions, and generally it's just the editor determining if it's appropriate for publication.In a review, a statement needs to be much more concretely supported by sources, is peer-reviewed, etc. Seeing some of the stuff that gets into editorials in journals though, I wouldn't consider them reliable to the point of in text attribution, but definitely for a opinion. You can still have fringe opinions in editorials, so weight would really need to be considered for including the opinion in the article. If we're talking about in-text attribution, we really should be reaching for those designated as review articles and not editorials. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

If there are important aspects of this editorial that should go into the article, then it should be sourced from some more reliable review articles. And if these aspects cannot be sourced from other secondary sources... then there is a problem. Because then both weight and reliability speak against using those aspects. --Kim D. Petersen 18:20, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying there's anything inherently unreliable about the source that would preclude its content from the article. It's still a kind of secondary source that can take the position of a WP:NOTEWORTHY opinion (i.e., some scientists think X) unless there are other sources brought to the table that establish it as a fringe idea. Basically, it's reliable enough for inclusion, but it needs to be stated not in Wikipedia's voice and probably closer to how it's currently presented as the opinion on behalf of the journal. The "not true" bit in the last two lines though is begging for an explanation, so either the why behind that not true needs to be added (still in the statement of the opinion from the source if it has it), or else a review is needed to back the claim up if fact is going to be asserted.

I should also point out I was thinking more about letters to the editor in my above post. Since this is actually an editorial, it's a bit more reliable towards asserting fact, but still not enough for Wikipedia's voice. Definitely reliable enough for saying there's a significant minority (at a minimum) when determining weight though without competing sources. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:16, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Well there is a consensus consisting of every editor, including Doc James with the only exception being QG, for not using that source at the article. So it doesn't really matter. And general consensus on E-cig articles is that only full reviews are used for medical information. So why QG brings it here is rather curious. --Kim D. Petersen 20:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Kim D. Petersen wrote "And general consensus on E-cig articles is that only full reviews are used for medical information." I agree we should use review articles not editorials for medical information. That's not the issue here. I want to use the source for mundane claims there are not specifically about medical information. I think there is no argument being made not to use this source for non-medical claims. Consensus is based on the arguments not a vote. So what is the reason not to use a reliable source for non-medical claims when there was in-text attribution to the journal? The text was not asserted as fact. QuackGuru (talk) 20:52, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

In terms of non-medical vs. non-medical, 1. (just added formatting to your original post) would be non-medical and is pretty mundane as you say, and 3. could be hazy since it is about chemistry, but it relates to health. 2. definitely would be medical content though. At RSN, we don't really care what the consensus is at the article; we're here to just give outside input on reliability. How(if) you all use the source is more of a weight question that's better left for elsewhere. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:29, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

How about only the proponents claim for 2? A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that the proponents of e-cigarettes assert that nicotine is "as safe as caffeine". I striked the last part for both 2 and 3. I think the proponents view brings balance to the article. QuackGuru (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

That would still be a medical claim. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

1) A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that e-cigarettes have concentrated liquids that are packed in colorful containers and combined with flavors that appear to be made to attract children. The flavors include Gummy Bears and bubble gum. It was concluded that it is recommended that e-cigarettes be kept in a safe place, where children and pets do not have access them.

3) A 2014 Postgraduate Medical Journal stated that proponents frequently assert that e-cigarettes is only water vapor.

1 is non-medical and 3 is the assertion of the proponents. I shortened 3 from the original wording. Is the Postgraduate Medical Journal reliable for these claims? QuackGuru (talk) 22:07, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Find another source for your information - just as has been repeated again and again on the talk-page. You can't just dismiss consensus... that would be gaming the system. [never mind the fact that it isn't the "postgraduate medical journal" that makes these claims - but Martin McKee] --Kim D. Petersen 23:02, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Even if you could get around consensus, which you cant. 1 is a medical claim because it is warning of dangers of ingestion of a chemical. AlbinoFerret 23:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it would be the opinion of the journal, hence the distinction between an editorial versus a letter to the editor. The latter would be strictly the opinion of McKee, but the former is commissioned and approved of by the journal itself. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: now that is a curious assertion. Do you have any evidence that this is the case for BMJ editorials - because it certainly isn't the general case - here for instance is the JAMA description of what an editorial in medical journals is[17]:

Editorials in medical journals are short essays that express the views of the authors, often regarding a research or review article published in the same issue. Editorials provide perspective on how the current article fits with other information on the same topic.

And considering that - i'd like you to expand a bit on that. --Kim D. Petersen 00:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact for the Postgraduate medical journal the description is[18]:

Editorials should deal with contemporary issues of importance to clinicians. Their content can be clinical, social, political, legal or related to research issues. Although they may be controversial, they should attempt to provide a balanced view. Editorials provide a personal view and, as such, will not be routinely submitted to peer review.

The underlined part is mine. So please expand how these represent the view of the journal? --Kim D. Petersen 01:03, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Read at the end under Footnotes. The source said it is a "Provenance and peer review Commissioned; internally peer reviewed."[19] QuackGuru (talk) 01:26, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't change that editorials are "personal view[s]", as has already been stated on the talk page. And internal peer-review is not real peer-review QG. (not that it would've changed it if it had been through real peer-review) --Kim D. Petersen 01:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Opinion of the journal, which is why they have the internal peer-review. Remember that editorials generally are intended to reflect the view of the publisher, not just the author. If it was just a letter to the editor (journals have those too) it wouldn't be peer-reviewed. That being said, the section Kim D. found on personal views is interesting. That seems to suggest the journal blurs the two a bit and also calls what's normally letters to the editor editorials too. However, that they specifically state the editorial was both commissioned and internally reviewed suggests the journal's approval in the form of what we'd typically call an editorial in most journals I'm familiar with at least. If it was volunteered and not reviewed, it'd be a letter to the editor and the opinion of strictly the author. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:09, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: According to both JAMA and the PMJ the major difference between editorials and letters is length, with editorials being essay length. For both publishing companies, editorials are not the views of the journal. So you will have to demonstrate that editorials (in medical publishing) is the view of the journal. I've done my part in demonstrating that it certainly isn't the case in the PMJ (or the JAMA line of) journal[s]. Therefore we cannot state this is the view of the journal, and we have to treat it as the views of its author - since that is what is verifiable. --Kim D. Petersen 07:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

One more case where we should stick to citing opinions as opinions. Opinions from notable persons are citable as opinions from notable persons. Opinions in editorial columns are still opinions. And if there is a consensus that the opinions are not from a notable person, and are not an official view of a publication, than it is a matter of editorial discussion as to whether to use the opinions. The gist is at the end of the column where it is clear that the author is opposed to tobacco companies "reinventing themselves as legitimate businesses" which is not a "medical statement" but a strongly political statement. Usable if cited as opinion ascribed to its (non-notable) author, not to the publication. And subject to the consensus of other editors. Were this a column by a notable person I would more strongly suggest consensus ought to allow its use. Collect (talk) 12:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• I remind all that Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion... yes, the source may reliably verify that the author of the source has an opinion on E-cigs... However, that is not the real issue here. The issue is whether the article should mention that opinion in the first place. That is a question of DUE WEIGHT and editorial consensus. Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Consensus from uninvolved editors is that the source is reliable and we should cite opinions as opinions. QuackGuru (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

A policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology

See Talk:Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes#In-text_attribution_again.

• Brandon, T. H.; Goniewicz, M. L.; Hanna, N. H.; Hatsukami, D. K.; Herbst, R. S.; Hobin, J. A.; Ostroff, J. S.; Shields, P. G.; Toll, B. A.; Tyne, C. A.; Viswanath, K.; Warren, G. W. (2015). "Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems: A Policy Statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology". Clinical Cancer Research. doi:10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-14-2544. ISSN 1078-0432.

1. Nicotine is regarded as a possibly lethal toxin.[20]

2. A policy statement by the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology has reported that "Third-hand exposure occurs when nicotine and other chemicals from second-hand aerosol deposit on surfaces, exposing people through touch, ingestion,and inhalation".[21]

Is the policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology reliable for these claims? QuackGuru (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The subject of the article is not "Nicotine". Unless you have a claim that nicotine, at the levels found in e-cigarettes, is "possibly a "lethal" toxin it is inappropriate to use in an article om e-cigarettes. There are lots of substances that can be lethal when taken in large quantities, even water. Using claims about nicotine at strengths above that found in e-cig's leads to original research by synthesis when followed by claims about e-cigarettes and the nicotine, at lower levels, in them. AlbinoFerret 20:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

On point 2, there shouldn't be any problem with that source (not even sure why it needs to be asked here). It's titled "Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems . . ." which is exactly in the scope of the article. That's exactly the kind of secondary source we're looking. Point one though is rather mundane as written. The source is reliable for an obvious fact, but unless there's addition context (i.e. levels in e-cigs) it probably won't pass when weight is considered. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:41, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The reason is because of this discussion. link AlbinoFerret 04:06, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks like in that discussion you and others are misunderstanding what a secondary source/review is considered. If a reputable scientific organization in the field states something in the context of summarizing the scientific literature, that is in the same ballpark as a review article in the sense that it is contributing towards summarizing scientific consensus. In almost any other article there wouldn't be any question on this being the kind of source we're looking for in determining where the science community stands. I can't say whether it's just a good-faith misunderstanding or WP:POV problems, but just a friendly reminder for everyone to check their POVs at the door before editing and just summarize what the sources say. Sometimes those sources are going to say things someone doesn't agree with, but in the science realm we need to accept inconvenient things like that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Note. If this source is reliable I think it is safe to say a lot more policy statements can be added to the page. QuackGuru (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

That really depends on each case and how they would be presented, so I would be careful with that approach. In a topic like this I'd make sure it's from highly reputable organizations to avoid just having a list of all the organizations in their statements (and avoid just ending up here again). I'd also be careful about weight as some organizations might be more speculative, while others will specifically state their statement is based on the current understanding of the literature. There will probably be some variability between those two. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think Kingofaces43 make very solid points. An article the covers the safety of a product requires reliable scientifically reputable sources. I also think there is a build in problem given the name of the article. Safety of electronic cigarettes is an unusual title for an article. Other editors should notice that there do not appear to be many articles on the safety of X, y, or Z and none of those are the safety of a specific consumer product. It would lead me to believe that this article may have been started as a form of advocacy and has now become a battle ground. I think it would be better to merge this into the electronic cigarette article and pare it down to just what the most reliable and reputable sources say. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Environmental impact

• Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes". Tobacco Control. 23 (Supplement 2): ii54–ii58. doi:10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2013-051480. ISSN 0964-4563. PMC 3995274. PMID 24732165.

See Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes#Environmental_impact. Is this source reliable? QuackGuru (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I would say yes. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems like another WP:SNOWBALL case. That's exactly the kind of source we'd be looking for in such a statement. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:22, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret tried to hide text from a reliable source from the page. He eventually deleted some of the text.[22][23][24][25][26] QuackGuru (talk) 01:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

World Lung Foundation

• "WHO Right to Call for E-Cigarette Regulation". World Lung Federation.

I noticed a lot of text and sources are being deleted from the Safety of electronic cigarettes. Is World Lung Foundation source reliable? QuackGuru (talk) 23:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a press release being used to make a medical claim. AlbinoFerret 23:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

So what is unreliable with using the source for the statement clearly attributed to the World Lung Foundation? QuackGuru (talk) 23:22, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Its a press release being used to make a medical claim. AlbinoFerret 23:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

It is the position of the World Lung Foundation. I think they are the experts. The same source is currently being used at another e-cigs page for a long time. It was added to the safety page because it has relevant information about safety. QuackGuru (talk) 23:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Unless someone is trying to claim the World Lung Foundation's statement is not what the World Lung Foundation actually said, it's plenty reliable. We don't use press releases because they typically don't have the expertise to reliably report on studies, but they're perfectly fine for documenting with an organization says. This is exactly what we'd be looking for in terms of a statement from an organization. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

If it were just used as a statement of the orginazation, on the Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes page that would be fine. But the way its being used is to state a medical claim on the Safety of Electronic cigarettes page. There is long standing agreement on the e-cigarette pages to only use reviews for that purpose. AlbinoFerret 01:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a statement of the organisation and this organisation is reliable for the claim. There is no special agreement to delete sources. The agreement on the page is that you don't have consensus to delete statements from organisations. QuackGuru (talk) 01:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:ONUS is in play here, just because its reliable its not automatic to include it. AlbinoFerret 01:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You deleted it because you claimed it was unreliable. I think you are now acknowledging it is reliable. Because you wrote in part "its reliable". QuackGuru (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong, I still think its unreliable, especially for the use you want. What I am saying that even if someone finds something reliable, it does not guarantee inclusion. AlbinoFerret 02:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what you're seeing as unreliable here Albino. It's a pretty straightforward statement by what appears to be a reputable medical themed organization [27]. The question at this point would be weight as to how to include it, not whether it's reliable anymore. Weight's not really a question for here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

That would be wrong. While a source is deemed reliable in one context, it doesn't follow that it is reliable in all context. --Kim D. Petersen 13:32, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

International Union Against Tuberculosis and Lung Disease

• Bam, T. S.; Bellew, W.; Berezhnova, I.; Jackson-Morris, A.; Jones, A.; Latif, E.; Molinari, M. A.; Quan, G.; Singh, R. J.; Wisotzky, M. (1 January 2014). "Position statement on electronic cigarettes or electronic nicotine delivery systems [Official statement]". The International Journal of Tuberculosis and Lung Disease. 18 (1): 5–7. doi:10.5588/ijtld.13.0815.

AlbinoFerret thinks the page is now POV. Is the International Union Against Tuberculosis and Lung Disease reliable? QuackGuru (talk) 05:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Reliable for their statement, but it doesn't appear they are a medical/scientific organization per se but more of a health advocacy group. Sort of a gray area, so I'd stick to more reputable orgs. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

World Medical Association

"WMA Statement on Electronic Cigarettes and Other Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems". World Medical Association.

Is the World Medical Association a reliable source? QuackGuru (talk) 05:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 06:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The WMA is reliable but the source is tertiary and articles should be based on secondary sources. Presumably before publishing their statement they consulted review studies and those are the sources we should use. TFD (talk) 07:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep, and that is the generic problem with the sources above as well. --Kim D. Petersen 13:09, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Are "page cites" required?

There is a Wikipedian who believes you can cite a book without a page number and that's okay. He does not possess the books because he sold them a long time ago: he just cites them anyway.

I think this is absolutely not the case, and that page numbers and references to text in specific pages are required ( templates should be installed if no page numbers are present). See Talk:Chinese_Canadians_in_British_Columbia#Re Oppenheimer.... WhisperToMe (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a question of citation style, not whether the book is a reliable source. A source can be a reliable basis for an article even if the article uses a poor citation, or indeed, doesn't cite the source at all. As far as sourcing goes, the two questions here are whether the source is reliable (is that in dispute?) and whether the article text is faithful to the content of the source. Anyway, for book citations, the content guideline suggests: "Specify the page number or range of page numbers. Page numbers are not required for a reference to the book or article as a whole. When you specify a page number, it is helpful to specify the version (date and edition for books) of the source because the layout, pagination, length, etc. can change between editions." Knight of Truth (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

So, that's quite different from what he reports of this discussion on Talk:Chinese Canadians in British Columbia#Oppenheimer et al. which I encourage you to read and compare to what you and GB Fan have said here......only about citation style, nto about iron-clad insistence on page-cites for everything ... or he will delete it i.e. CENSOR it.Skookum1 (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Knight has responded to you at 16:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC). He is correct that not having the page doesn't make the source unreliable but he has said: "I do think citations should be as specific as possible for the statement cited (which, for general concepts, may preclude page numbers, but will at other times include even line numbers or the like)." and "Certainly, I don't think it's best practice to cite works you don't have on-hand, because there is great potential for accidental improper synthesis. How do you separate your interpretation from the author's words, if you have only your memory to rely on?" WhisperToMe (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I would say in general a page number is generally needed. To determine if a source is reliable, you need the specific content being cited. Shorter sources like journal articles, etc. generally don't need a specific page. However, people shouldn't be spending time going through a whole book to find a single page to verify the content. In most cases, just a specific sentence or paragraph at most is being cited, so page numbers should be included in that case. Page numbers aren't needed so much if the entire book is being cited for a broad concept and discussed by the whole book rather than something suited to a single sentence. That's an example where things get iffy, but the general rule I like to see is that a person can verify the sourced content with source in hand in a matter of minutes. If they can't do that, more information like a page number is needed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, and especially thank you for the clarification in regards to the general idea of the book not needing a page number, while specific facts do need page numbers. I think this is important information to relay. R.E. journal articles, it's good to know. I still prefer to cite exact page numbers from journals to help people find the sourcing content quicker, and to assist slow readers or people with dyslexia, or people with English as a second language. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know there isn't any requirement for any citations to have page numbers. It is always preferable to add as much information as possible to citations but the only thing that is required is enough to identify the source. If the source can be identified then it is possible to determine if the source verifies the information. -- GB fan 21:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, per WP:V: Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate).

If a page number would have been appropriate (which it almost always will be for a book, following any reputable guide to referencing), then the cite fails WP:V without it. Formerip (talk) 21:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

So you are saying that if a book is referenced without a page number you can not verify the information that it cites? IMO, it will make it harder but the information can still be verified even if the whole book has to be read. -- GB fan 11:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Asking somebody to go through an entire book to find a fact on one page is putting a big burden on them. Some people are fast readers and/or can use an index to find the pages by getting the key word, but some things don't show up in the index and some books don't have an index. Some people are dyslexic, have English as a second language, and/or have little free time, so they need as much information as they can get in locating the passages that confirm the text. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:55, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

That passage from WP:V ONLY concerns direct quotes/ NOT anything else. See my final comments on the parallel discussion launched by him on the OR board, something I say repeatedly and also with increasing frustration on his "la la I don't hear you" re-assertions on the talkpage when he continues to not just demand them, but order me to get the page-cites "ASAP". Impatient as well as rude and AGF, wot? Thing is, he's also maintaining his SYNTH version of WP:V applies to talkpages, and to even simple mentions of something a source says that I know it says and tell him; he wants even those mentions of sources deleted from the talkpage unless I page-cite them....do you get an idea what I've been dealing with this last few months? that's only the tip of the iceberg, but a very pointy and sharp one right now....Skookum1 (talk) 11:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I haven't seen the behaviour you're talking about, so I can't comment on that.

I have to say you're wrong on the point of fact here, though. It doesn't only concern direct quotes. The wording is very clear: "all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged" (my bolding). Formerip (talk) 14:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

As noted below, he's used mention of this discussion on the CCinBC talkpage to assert that he did get support for his position about page cites but I see nothing like that in your response or in GB Fan's rather more explicit "no page-cites are not needed" [paraphrase] below; re your "the two questions here are whether the source is reliable (is that in dispute?) and whether the article text is faithful to the content of the source. Anyway, for book citations,"

the source is reliable. It's him maintaining that my account of what's in it is not reliable is the gist of his escalating demands for page-citing, as laid out in a bit more detail below); i.e. he maintains, to my face that *I* am not reliable and what I say about what's in a book shouldn't be believed.... I don't keep books "in hand" for years (they're heavy and airlines charge quite a bit for excess baggage as you know) but I also know what I've read and don't make things up. And actually, yes, rather than accept the source outright he went and sourced reviews on it to write book review article In the Sea of Sterile Mountains apparently in order to discredit it, as indeed the POV academic crowd did..including whining it had no line-cites; even though it has far more information in it than the sum of all the "scholarly" papers he's using to construct his ethno-POV soapbox-article.

anything I've put in by way of "the article text" IS faithful to the content of that source; and in fact most things I mention are in several sources.....all of which he knows I don't have on hand so can't page-cite..hence the demands for page-cites as a dodge to defray their inclusion in the article; he's demanding sources for e.g. Golden Village (Richmond, British Columbia) and Metrotown as being concentrations of Chinese commerce and populations in Greater Vancouver, which they famously are (and in spades); without seemingly ever once looking at those articles to see what sources are already in Wikipedia (and which nobody else has ever warred over page-cites about).

What he's pretending your answers to him said, vs what you actually did say, is yet more evidence that he only hears himself and/or doesn't actually understand what was said..... and another case of him SYNTHing complete untruth about something in the course of his asserting his fictional and biased version of history and how Wikipedia allegedly operates i.e. requires; there are no rules here, but he sure loves asserting that there are and making up more.Skookum1 (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

To actually respond to what's relevant (seriously stop posting walls of text focusing on other editors) how is one supposed to verify the source is reliable for the specific content in cases like this? Page numbers generally are needed for books. That not only allows people to check what was said, but also prevents people from making claims that aren't quite mentioned in the book. If it's not apparent where a source makes a claim, it's generally fair game to delete the content because the cite doesn't match the claim made on Wikipedia. FormerIP's post above is pretty concise on what why we need page cites in most cases as well, and I will agree with WTM that page cites should be included to verify content, especially because this appears to be a contentious topic. Just cite your source (i.e. page) when you are discussing specific content. That shouldn't be anything controversial at all, so there's no reason to bring in all the other drama to this board as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

This is that Wikipedian mentioned in the lede of this oh-no-not-yet-another-board-essay as a way to reject good faith and demand page-cites when they are not needed. This has included WTMs' demands that I must provide page cites even for talkpage mentions of sources and events that he is also determinedly finding ways to keep (or try to keep) from conflicting with this chosen POV-theme for "his" article; he orated endlessly and repetitiously at the OR board recently, asserting that WP:V requires page-cites for anything or HE will delete it, including apparently his threats to delete the talk page mentions of issues and events absent from or in conflict with the prejudicial biases of the selection of "scholarly" sources he insists are all that matters; he holds in disdain the many local histories I mention and items in them, again demanding page cites, and last night (in my time zone) ordering me to get the page-cites that he's demanding; he wants me to put more time into his demands and is escalating his attacks on anything I bring up. This is yet another bureaucratic side-discussion where he is IMO CANVASSING for support to get me out of his way; I know BC and BC wiki-space like almost no one else, and have a lot of support and respect for my knowledge of BC history and sources about it outside Wikipedia as well as inside it (see the barnstars section of my userpage).

But not to him, he went to the OR board to get support for the notion that my 59 years of life and over 45 years of in-depth readings of BC history and media was not valid i.e. he didn't have to listen to it because that is "original research" in his instruction creeping rule-mongering world of "scholarly"

He makes SYNTH arguments about so many things in so many ways it's obnoxious and highly disruptive and AGF.....yet because of my resistance to his POV agenda and control-oriented demands that *I* do what *he* wants an ANI which was started by @Moonriddengirl: was turned directly against me while his own ongoing misconduct and disruptiveness

I've never encountered anyone so hostile to things he doesn't know or are which in the way of the thesis he's developing on the page in question, and in various others, and in good two dozen lengthy and SYNTH-y arguments on various talkpages and boards while continuing to TRIVIA/UNDUE expansions of material, fighting off, again even talkpage mentions of events he hasn't heard about....and which his preferred collection of bias sources with their glosses and generalizations of half-truths either avoid or just don't know about. They're all "of a kind" and the article is increasingly an ethnopolitics soapbox and not a good article, and is at conflict in its tone and conclusions/assertions with many (many) other BC articles. His cite-obsession and SYNTHographical ramblings include attempts to justify capital-W "Whites" rather than the WikiCanada standard "European Canadian" or the more specific uses like British, American, Maritimer, German, etc as the paradigm of his selection of sources is "White/Chinese" in a very recognizable theme of anti-"white" bias most easily summarized as "cruel nasty exploitive white bigots vs earnest hard working decent and suffering Chinese"; way too common in modern academia; and for those thinking I'm just an "angry old white man" who's anti-Chinese, that's a crock and I'm not alone.....

as an example, see the CCinBC talkpage about a geographer named Mike Kennedy who, like me and many others, doesn't like at all the ideologically driven fabrications and distortions of current (recent) trends in BC historiography; and the way said authors either don't know the facts, or don't want to admit to anything that gets in teh way of their biased constructs about BC's complicated past. And THAT is exactly where WTM is coming from too - this discussion about page-cites is only looking for validation (which he hasn't gotten though on the talkpage he's pretending he has) of his efforts to block any mention of facts and issues and to exclude sources I know them to be in, with the page-cite game only IMO a ruse; he knows I don't have the books on hand (I live in Cambodia for now) and yet keeps on telling me to get them and page-cite them. Not just insistently, but actually as though he's Editor-in-Chief...which he's NOT. He's No 34 on list of all-time wikipedians but his user summary is opted out of; from what I have experienced I suspect that most of his edits re board-wars and long SYNTH-y essays and given what I'm seeing of his work on articles of "his" I've seen and tried to cope with and input on, I'm aghast at what else must be out there on Wikipedia written by him.

the POV quality of his sources is rank in many cases, and I'm kept too busy responding to him, and defending myself from a campaign to block me (yet again for no good reason other than revanchism and the semi-literate culture used to avoid discussing issues rather than personalities and writing styles that is becoming a hallmark of character assassination and personality-attacks in that place called ANI that is more full of projections and accusations and AGF/NPA behaviour than anywhere else in Wikipedia. And there, a block campaign was launched by someone with a very determined axe to grind re some other POV stuff to do with the Ottawa shootings where I worked hard to keep propaganda-style content and actual censorship edits, and false edit comments, from overtaking the article (as also at various other POV issues in various areas over my 9 years here)....

....and yes, no wonder "some people" want me blocked, I insist on fairness and the complete truth and know propaganda and distortion when I see it; while they want me gone because that's NOT what they want in Wikipedia, rather information control and suppression of fact in the way of their respective agendas........including in the case of Chinese Canadians in British Columbia; I get accused of "walls of text" in that ANI while his (incredibly) lengthy and unreadable expoundings of weird-logic and selective-cite SYNTH go unaddressed and unrestricted; it was said to me I should edit in other topic areas where I will not encounter such people and one (too typical) somebody-else-that-knows-nothing-about BC denounced me for OWN behaviour on BC topics; nothing could be more misdirected and a-factual; telling me to abandon my province's history and social geography to people from beyond whose only sources are online and have no direct experience of the place is utterly absurd; while not telling it to someone constructing and bureacratic-board warring, as again here, to continue his campaign of rule-mongering and fact-avoidance and anti-collaboration and very obvious "OWN" behaviour is ludicrous.

I have contemplated taking the many issues concerning his obstructive and imperious/demanding and ordering-me-around behaviour to boards on the problems I find in all his work (including an atrociously bald writing style with bad syntax and clumsy construction, but what's going on is SYNTH/OR, TRIVIA, UNDUE, ESSAY, POV and more all at the same time; his AGF towards anything I say is reflexive by now; but has escalated since a discussion on my talkpage where he disputed my removal of "Anglophone schools" from BC education sections and proceeded to lecture me, a real live British Columbian, on what he thought was OK, and even though two other editors joined me in seemingly getting him to understand how wrong he was, he never conceded defeat though conceding he should use "English-language schools" and "French-language schools" but still not getting that those "English-language schools" have French-immersion programs and are not really "English-language schools".

He spoke throughout that like a college professor telling us (all three were Canadians) what was "actually" the case, even though he's never even been to the country and only just started "invading" Canadian wiki-space a few months ago...three or four very long months now, all the while disputing word-usages and page-cite-demanding and advancing the POV of his choice of sources while ignoring dozens of sources I've assembled on that talkpage; probably archived now because of his ongoing nit-pickery about words using SYNTH/out-of-context and often highly illogical "logic".....

Following that non-admission-of-error, his latest onslaught began against a slew of edits in the last 48 hours on the CCinBC article; so many that I can't keep up; that he would order me to go buy the book in question, which I already have read several times and know well (I don't keep mental notes of page numbers when reading/digesting as I'm reading as an historian, not a wiki-bureaucrat) as I have dozens of other books - hundreds really - about BC that he doesn't even want to give a nod to, except to demand page-cites when they're not necessary, as GB Fan encouragingly notes above...but in the comment on the CCinBC talkpage just now that clued me into the existence of this yet-another-side-discussion of his, he makes no concession AT ALL to what GB Fan has said....he hears only himself, and turns things said in edit comments and talkpage mentions back with complete distortion or miscomprehension of what was said, juxtaposing his SYNTH and misapprehensions on what was being changed or had said, and never listening and always arguing.

Yet I'm the one in hot water because of his onslaught of half-truths and rule-happy things like this discussion - "it's OK if I demand page-cites for anything, right?". No it's not, and it's not OK to keep on with this behaviour, and not OK to imperiously tell off a Wikipedian experienced in the subject area and who has built a great deal of the BC content in Wikipedia that he is worthless and tht anything he says cannot be taken in good faith; he doesn't say that directly but the message has been clear; including in his coming here to look for yet more support for his SYNTH extrapolations of guidlines into iron-clad rules in order to censor what he doesn't want to hear and doesn't want in "his" article(s).

Yet another hour of my time spent on all this (I type fast, this didn't take me hours though indeed hours upon hours and days upon days have been spent trying to get him to listen to commonsense....or resist attack from those he's found "support" from in the vicious bearpit of hate and pomposity called ANI.Skookum1 (talk) 10:57, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Though I stand by what I said above, that cited page numbers are not required for a source to be reliable, I do think citations should be as specific as possible for the statement cited (which, for general concepts, may preclude page numbers, but will at other times include even line numbers or the like). Certainly, I don't think it's best practice to cite works you don't have on-hand, because there is great potential for accidental improper synthesis. How do you separate your interpretation from the author's words, if you have only your memory to rely on? It goes without saying that no-one should claim article ownership, and articles are usually not made better when information is removed that is cited poorly but nevertheless accurately reflects the source.Knight of Truth (talk) 16:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

If it's not a BLP issue, the way I deal with it is to just put a "pageneeded". That way the information stays up and there is time taken to either get the specific pagecite or find an alternate source which says the same thing. I'm perfectly fine keeping up the information cited from the book. I started this to underscore what best practices are on Wikipedia, and that possession/access to the works is very important. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:47, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The tag has been added throughout the article so it seems like this issue should be resolved. That being said, it seems like this is less about the use of page numbers in references and more about the behavior of the other editor. Perhaps this should be taken to another place. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Multiple Landmark Worldwide sources

At least one editor at Landmark Worldwide would like to use the following sources to support the given statements. Others (including myself) disagree. Please provide commentary to assist us in resolving these questions. Thank you. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Note, the most recent discussion of these sources is found at Talk:Landmark_Worldwide#Recent_addition_of_sources. --Tgeairn (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Tidskriften Analys & Kritik

Source: A&K staff (8 June 2004). "Irrationalism, mysticism och ockultism: Landmark Education lägger ned verksamheten". Tidskriften Analys & Kritik (in German). University of Zurich and University of Düsseldorf. ISSN 0171-5860. Retrieved 23 January 2015.

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content:

Landmark closed its offices in Sweden as of June 2004.

Discussion:

1) This is listed as being published by "University of Zurich and University of Düsseldorf" in the citation. The linked article is published in the "Journal of Analysis & Criticism", which was published by "Steve Hall".[28]

2) There is no indication of editorial oversight or of reliability of this source.

3) It looks to be a "blog" type entry. Some other entries are sourced, but this one is not. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Ad 1. The link points to a journal issue of Tidskriften Analys & Kritik, which is Swedish not German. Here is the record in The European Library (derived from the Swedish National Library - it has its own record but deeplinking is not possible). It is as far as I can see not an issue of the Journal of Analysis & Criticism (has there ever been a journal published under that title?). Neither is it the German journal Analyse & Kritik (Düsseldorf and Zürich). Here is the webpage of Analyse & Kritik. None of the aforementioned journals has ever been published by Steve Hall. So their seems to be a lot of confusion here.

Ad 2. Possibly true.

Ad 3. True, but also renowned journals as for example Nature have 'blog'-type entries.

I am not certain if the source suffices to support the statement. Is the statement that Landmark stopped its activities in Sweden after the Swedish television had broadcasted the Landmark documentary films (Kalla Fakta, 2003/2004) controversial at all? This website provides the same information. Theobald Tiger (talk) 16:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the full statement from the article is "Following these articles and programs on the private TV channel TV4, Landmark closed its offices in Sweden in June 2004.", which is unsupported by the source and not supported by the FRI post either. It may be possible to source that Landmark does not have an office in Sweden, but we don't have sources for this cause-effect relationship. --Tgeairn (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Scribd.com

Source: Case Financial (2000b). "Pacific Biometrics, Filings Form SB-2". Scribd. Retrieved 23 October 2008.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: ref duplicates default (link)

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content:

In 2001 Landmark Education formed Tekniko Licensing Corporation, a Nevada corporation, which purchased Tekniko Technology from Giles' company.

Discussion:

1) The scribd copy of a document doesn't appear to support the text at all.

2) It's scribd.com - not a reliable source at all.

3) The document appears to have a url at the top (http://www.secinfo.com/dRqWm.5wzh.htm). This url is already linked as a different source in the article, and the editor insists that this is a separate and different document. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Ad 1. I agree that both the secinfo-website and the scribd-document (the last is a part of the first) do not support the current text. The source merely states that Giles is the owner of Tekniko Licensing Corporation. Here is a vacancy for a Tekniko Administrative Manager (2005), which clearly states: "The qualified candidate would be accountable for managing all administrative aspects of one of Landmark Education's wholly owned subsidiaries, Tekniko Licensing Corporation." So there must have been a transfer between 2000 and 2005.

Ad 2. Generally this is true, but it is in the context a form of hairsplitting.

Ad 3. It is misleading to say that the editor (Astynax) has insisted that the Scribd-file is a separate and different document.

The text is not properly backed by sources (though I think it likely that the information is correct). Theobald Tiger (talk) 19:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

DIKE staff

Source: DIKE staff (2000). "Landmark Education renamed". Digitales Informationssystem in der Evangelischen Kirche in Hessen und Nassau. Mühlheim am Main. Archived from the original on 8 February 2007. Retrieved 22 October 2008. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: ref duplicates default (link)

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content:

Subsidiaries: The Vanto Group, Landmark Education International, Inc.

Discussion:

This is an anonymous passage from an anti-cult editorial website, which states "The personal opinions of the individual authors do not represent the opinion of SINUS". It is not a reliable source. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The source does not support Landmark Education International, Inc. being a subsidiary of Landmark Worldwide. That Vanto Group is a wholly owned subsidiary is openly acknowledged by Landmark Worldwide. As far as I am aware Landmark Education International, Inc. is a former name of Landmark Worldwide. Theobald Tiger (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Cultic Studies Review

Source: Kronberg, Robert; Lindebjerg, Kristina (2002). "Psychogroups and Cults in Denmark". Cultic Studies Review. 1 (1). International Cultic Studies Association.

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content:

Other observers have noted relationships between the training programs and religion or a spiritual experience

Discussion:

1) This citation claims the journal was published by the International Cultic Studies Association, which did not exist at the time of publication. The actual document shows that it was published by the AFF (a predecessor to the ICSA).

2) The Cultic Studies Review did not have (and did not claim) an editorial review, and the TOC of the issue clearly shows which articles were peer-reviewed (this one was not).

3) A copy of the article is found here, and does not support the cited passage in any way. The source says "we have also had many inquiries about the American psychogroup, Landmark, which is associated with cults because of the high level of one-sided sales pressure that many people report." The source is calling Landmark a psychogroup (not religion or spiritual) and then says "Tvind is another [emphasis added] non-religious organization...", effectively saying the opposite of that the passage in the article claims. And again, there was no peer-review or editorial review. Simply a statement by a self-trained "Exit Counselor". --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Ad 1. What Tgeairn calls "the actual document" does not, as far as I can see, contain the text relevant to the issue.

Ad 2. Therefore Tgeairn's conclusion under 2. is based, I fear, upon the wrong publication. (But I think the conclusion is nevertheless true.)

Ad 3. This reference should be removed, because it doest not support the text. The text itself needs not to be changed, as it is backed by other (and better) references. Theobald Tiger (talk) 22:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Re 1: You're right, the pdf of the print copy does not contain that article (and I should have made that clear in my opening remarks). It was only in the electronic (website) edition of that issue. Somewhere in the web archive I saw the listing showing what was in the print copy and what was electronic only. If needed, I can go dig that up, but it seems unnecessary to do so (given the other issues with the source and the availability of other sources). --Tgeairn (talk) 18:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Not reliable Given that ICSA doesn't seem to have had editorial review prior to 2010, any ICSA article from before that time should not be considered a reliable source. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Lockwood, Religiosity Rejected

Source: Lockwood, Renee (2011). "Religiosity Rejected: Exploring the Religio-Spiritual Dimensions of Landmark Education". International Journal for the Study of New Religions. 2 (2). Sheffield, England: Equinox. ISSN 2041-9511.

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content:

Before leaving his position at Mind Dynamics, Erhard considered setting up est as a church

It [Landmark] has also denied any direct connection between its programs and Erhard's est and Forum

Some scholars have categorized Landmark and its predecessor organizations as new age, self religion or a new religious movement.

Discussion:

These are three controversial statements, and each of them require exceptional sources before we make them. At the time this source was published, the author (Lockwoood) was a graduate student at the University of Sydney.[29] In the paper, the author acknowledges that several articles have been published about the Landmark Forum, and says "These have proved to be valuable resources, and are referenced here only when their account can be supported by the author's experiences of the Landmark Forum". This is also not the behaviour of a researcher.

About the claims:

1) "Before leaving his position at Mind Dynamics, Erhard considered setting up est as a church". This is taking the source (Bartlet, 1978) somewhat out of context, Barlet said "...a variety of alternative plans were canvased - whether to be profit or nonprofit, whether to organize as a church...". We should just stick with citing Bartlet.

2) "It [Landmark] has also denied any direct connection between its programs and Erhard's est and Forum". The word denied is only in the paper once ("...[Landmark] has continuously denied being a religious organization"). The paper does not allege that Landmark disclaims Erhard or a relationship with est or the Forum.

3) "Some scholars have categorized Landmark and its predecessor organizations as new age, self religion or a new religious movement." Lockwood mostly says that previous writers do not include Landmark as religious (for instance "Rarely are the boundaries of what constitutes a “religion” expanded in order to explore those groups that, though not understood to be “religious” in a traditional sense, clearly contribute to contemporary “spiritual” life.") She indirectly says that it should be percieved as religious, but she is hardly a "scholar". --Tgeairn (talk) 21:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source at all? Is it reliable for the sourced statements?

• Not reliable - As proposer of commentary above. --Tgeairn (talk) 21:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

As there are no arguments given to support the view that this is not a reliable source, I am not able to address them. Obviously this source is reliable.

Ad 1. The source does support the first statement: "Finally, it is imperative to note that during its inception, the possibility of establishing est as a church was indeed considered, but its official position as an "educational corporation" eventually prevailed." (p.229)

Ad 2. The source does support the second statement: "Landmark Education today insists that the Landmark Forum is entirely distinct from est, claiming that it is not based on or a derivation of Werner Erhard’s original program." (p.227)

Ad 3. It is crystal clear that Tgeairn has not read the Lockwood article. Moreover, the statement is not controversial at all.

Kind regards, Theobald Tiger (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. Regarding the source itself, as I said - it is a student paper written by a graduate student, as such it is PRIMARY at best. It is not published in citation indexes, it's DOI isn't even published.. These alone disqualify it as a reliable source, I believe (see WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Even if not, the author herself says that she disregarded other sources that did not match her own experience (actual quote above). As for the points, I re-read Lockwood's paper just today before preparing this. There is a link above to read it online, and if you would like a pdf then it's available via google search (I won't link as it's a site that is hosting copyrighted content for download in avoidance of payment).

Ad 1: My point here is that Lockwood is taking Bartlet (her cited source) out of context. We already have Bartlet sourced in the LW article, so I see no need for this interpretation.

Ad 2: This still feels like a twist of terms, but I can see your logic.

Ad 3: The statement is not only controversial, but it is the point of the paper and it is the crux of what Arbcom has said is the locus of dispute with the LW article. Lockwood disputes Chryssides and others in their limitation of what constitutes a religious movement, and she arrives at novel interpretations from her own observation of a course she attended.

We can disagree on a topic, but please do not make statements such as "It is crystal clear that Tgeairn has not read the Lockwood article". Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 23:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Not only have you not read the article, as I have clearly demonstrated, but you also have not the faintest idea of what primary source actually means. The Lockwood article is not a primary source at all. It is a study and it has been published in the International Journal for the Study of New Religions, Vol 2, No 2 (2011), which is published in cooperation between the International Society for the Study of New Religions and Equinox Publishing (link). It is a refereed journal. Is has an editorial board with distinguished scholars as Susan J. Palmer, Adam Possamai, Paul Heelas, Boaz Huss among others. Theobald Tiger (talk) 09:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• I would say that it is clearly not reliable, particularly as a source for the highly contentious claim that Landmark is a "Religious" organisation in any sense in which a normal reader would understand that term. Lockwood explicitly states that she is "expanding" the scope of the religious beyond its normal usage. The study is a student paper, written while she was a postgraduate and before she received a doctorate. In the four years since then, she has still not attained an academic position as far as I can see. Nor do web searches produce any evidence that she is recognised as an expert in the field, and there do not appear to be anything much in the way of citations, endorsements or commentaries on her paper.I have no idea what the acceptance criteria are for that journal, but I am not convinced that fact that they printed it confers any evidence of notability. I have read it (twice) and I don't find it a very impressive piece of work. I am sure Tgeairn knows whether he has read it or not, and it strikes me as uncivil to contradict him. DaveApter (talk) 14:16, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Civil or uncivil, the conclusion is simply inescapable. Theobald Tiger (talk) 23:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• Limited Reliability as Minority View For 1) Bartlett is clearly a better source. For 2) the source isn't saying what the text is alleging, so it shouldn't be used. For 3) I think this is fair, but it's extremely critical to note that saying something is an NRM is completely distinct from calling something religious, since many scholars use a definition of an NRM that doesn't require religiosity, merely that it be something they wish to study. Lockwoocd's claim of Landmark's actual religosity is valid only as a minority view, as she acknowledges that it contradicts the claims of more noted scholars like Chryssides, and that she is clearly proposing a new theory. A new theory by a graduate student contradicting other existing scholarship is clearly a minority view. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

At first I was going to say this is a reliable source. But in reading- frankly it is hard to tell. I think as the discussion above points out, it is not being used in a way that supports what is being said in the article. If I understand the way this is being used in the article in the broader picture, it is to support the notion that a for profit company has religious characteristics or is a religion. If that is the case then I don't really think the graduate paper (although quite interesting) quite adequately supports that claim either. Admittedly, I just don't understand how anyone can contend that corporations can be religions. Legally it is either one or the other so in my view this is an extraordinary claim that requires more. If my answer took this beyond the scope of what was intended- my apologies! Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Timothy McVeigh Religion and Political categorization

Is [30] this ethicsdaily.com article sufficient to label Timothy McVeigh's religion as Christian Identity?

There is no doubt that Timothy McVeigh was deeply influenced by the Christian Identity movement. Christian Identity is a profoundly racist and theocratic form of faith that developed in the late 1970s and spread like wildfire through rural communities throughout the U.S. in the 1980s.

In my opinion, McVeigh was one of those who responded to the traces of Christian Identity beliefs that are woven into Pierce's book.

From here it looks like the opinion of the writer who proffers no actual source for the claim whatsoever. Absent a real source, we can not assert McVeigh's religion to have been "Christian Identity Movement".

Second issue is whether we can place McVeigh in Category:American libertarians on the basis of [31] page 298 The claim made in the biography sourced to that book was:

but may have voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.

Which sounds like pure speculation at best. Is that book a good source for the claimmade? Is the claim actually speculation which does not belong in a biography? Is the claim as stated sufficient to place McVeigh in the category? Thanks. Collect (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sourcing aside, even if that source was determined to be reliable, there is a bit a logical leap from "Timothy McVeigh was deeply influenced by the Christian Identity movement" to "Timothy McVeigh's religion is Christian Identity". You can be influenced by a religious movement without identifying yourself as a member of that movement. Similarly, on the second issue, even if we knew for a fact that McVeigh voted for Browne that doesn't make him a libertarian. As with the religion, you can vote for a candidate without identifying with their political party. I know many people that consider themselves democrats that have occasionally voted for a republican and vice versa, and many more people who consider themselves independent who have voted for members of several political parties. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

ethicsdaily.com doesn't appear to be a reliable source. Is there any reason to believe that it has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking? As for the second issue, we need to look at the totality of what reliable sources say. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Going to chip in here and agree on both points - the inference is not supported and should be removed for the reasons provided thus far. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Ahecht the quote from the source that he was influenced by the Christian Identity movement doesn't automatically mean it was his religion. Based on the quoted text it is not an adequate source for making that point. I can't comment on the reliability of the book itself. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

This source doesn't do it for me. McVeigh is hardly an obscure figure it should be easy for the editors on this article to locate a reliable source clearly addressing these issues in a more substantive way. Take a look, it's in a book. Gamaliel (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

"Bellingcat"

I know that this board isn't meant to be used to address general source reliability, but I was wonder if any of my esteemed colleagues that frequent this board could comment on a website called "Bellingcat". Queer name, if I've ever heard one. It is a relatively new website, and largely seems to be the project of one fellow, a Mr Brown Moses. It seems to be a form of original research, activist blogging. I can't seem to find any evidence of reliability accorded to it by RS. This question came up when an editor attempted to add information from this Bellingcat "report" to our article on the Battle of Mariupol. I cannot trace its reliability, at all. I'm especially concerned by the fact that it is written by a one "Pieter van Huis", who the site says "is based in the Netherlands and is currently finishing his university studies". Kyiv Post, which I generally consider reliable, mentioned the report. KP says that Bellingcat is a "renowned open-source investigative group", but I find that odd, as it is a fairly new "group" (launched on 1 July in the prior summer), and not mentioned by any RS. I'd never heard of it until now. KP also says "Despite verbal and written requests to the General Prosecutor’s office, the Kyiv Post was not able to ascertain the status of the official investigation into the May 9 shootings". The lack of the official investigation report is also very concerning. Anyway, what do you fellows think? I personally don't think it is RS. It seems too shaky. RGloucester — ☎ 23:36, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat is often cited in RS , as for example in the guardian last july on mh-17mh17 , he has been profiled in The New Yorker rocket man, a speaker at the Frontline Club,the changing face of news gathering, and - Bellingcat, though still quite new has attracted attention , as for example here [32] -, - he is already a respected citizen investigative journalist - is Bellingcat a RS ? if one were an Assad regime supporter, or Putinist one would frantic denigrate it and say, its not a RS, but then that's from a pov that regards LifeNews and SANa and RT reliable, so what would that be worth ?, otherwise , - I think it should be regarded as a RS, its a team, not one person now, - 'a Bellingcat study said ...' such and such, - should be fine. bloody hell when one thinks how painstaking and scrupulous bellingcat reports are, wp should be asking itself - is it of its caliber , or even close, not the other way round really Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• We have a page about Eliot Higgins, founder and one of Bellingcat authors. Based on info/sources on his page, he looks like a more or less reputable journalist. So, I think this source may deserve some credibility. My very best wishes (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

He may well be, but it seems like he has political motives. What's more, this particular report is sourced to a student that is "finishing his university studies". RGloucester — ☎ 02:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

One must be careful, however this particular publication looks like a good and detailed investigative report to me. BTW, this former student edited here, on-wiki a few years ago and looked as a reasonable contributor, which does not affect credibility of his article though.My very best wishes (talk) 04:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Having an article about someone, or saying they're a journalist, doesn't mean a source they write in is automatically reliable. We have a whole list of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, but that doesn't mean any of them should be used as reliable sources. Shii (tock) 02:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't have an article on the author, only on the founder of the blog. It is fairly obvious that this isn't an RS report. RGloucester — ☎ 01:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I know nothing about the web site, but the 'queer name' may be a reference to the phrase Belling the cat. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I've seen it being used as an RS on quite a number of articles surrounding current events, and have been wanting to query it myself. Being started by a notable, as we know, does not make any committees, think tanks or publications the notable is attached to inherently notable (or reliable). It certainly doesn't make any 'journalist' published there RS, just self-professed. At the very least, if anything is to be used in an article, it should require WP:INTEXT attribution, as well as being open to being challenged or discussed on the article's talk page. Not sure = probably not RS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the operative question is whether the site exercises enough editorial control to be considered a third-party publisher. Rhoark (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Every indication I've found points to yes. I'm beginning to suspect this might be the most reliable source in existence. [[33]] Rhoark (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see how the article you've pointed to (an obscure, blog-like online journal using an article by an equally obscure 'journalist'!?) demonstrates your contention. I'm pleased for you that you're convinced that it's the ultimate RS, but you've demonstrated nothing other than establishing that you believe that your opinion qualifies as an empirical truth. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Ultimately, I do not think claims by this "Bellingcat" should be used unless reported elsewhere and verified. I think it is very shaky. I know that I'll lose any battle to remove it from the article in question, but the reality is that this isn't RS in the slightest. I'm sure it serves its purpose, but it should not be the basis for encylopaedia articles. RGloucester — ☎ 01:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

what do you mean 'verified'? -it was reported elsewhere - the kyivpost - and you atill complained, - now it has to be 'verified' - what does that mean? Sayerslle (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it is obvious. If you are not aware, I might direct you to WP:V and WP:RS. RGloucester — ☎ 01:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

well the Kyiv post 'verified' it was worth reading. bt you set up a yawp didn't yu so I got confused what you meant by verified. and then you said they didn't 'verify' the report, merely reported it - and I lost the will to live - imo wp articles should lead readers to interesting information, via RS yes, which the kyivpost is, - but obviously 'some RS are more equal than others' in your world. its like 'did the kyivpost verify that it was 'the truth'? - well, no - so what? they published an article about it - its an RS - full stop. Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting information that is not picked up by an RS other than Kyiv Post is of suspicious character. Keep in mind that KP, once again, confirmed that none of it was verifiable. Note that WP:V is a policy. It is not our job to point people to "interesting" information, but to verifiable information. RGloucester — ☎ 02:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

'verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source' - well, I guess its at a remove, but at least readers of wp can verify that a RS is happy to report the findings of bellingcat - in a sane editing environment that would count for much , the KP not as suspicious of the originators of the information as 'RGloucester' is - so rgloucester is a better 'gatekeeper' for what should be read than the KP ? I interpret the policy different to you - and please don't tell me I don't understand the policy then, because that's all too possible - I keep it simple in my head - the KP report covers this investigation - fine , I stop there -Sayerslle (talk) 02:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That's not how it works. What is RS or not changes on the basis of what is reported, which is exactly why this board exists. RGloucester — ☎ 02:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

right - so the editorial board at the KP lost their minds to touch the bellingcat report? I doubt it Sayerslle (talk) 02:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You need to look closer. What we have here is the Columbia_Journalism_Review, an absolutely top-tier reliable source on the journalism industry, describing how Bellingcat has taken investigative journalism and fact-checking to unprecedented levels. It's a game-changer. Rhoark (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That's not what that says. It may be "revolutionary" in the way it does things, but that doesn't make it reliable in Wikipedia's terms. Twitter has been considered "revolutionary" too, but we don't use that as a source. The way it does "fact-checking" is through analysing YouTube videos, which by most standards isn't fact-checking at all. RGloucester — ☎ 05:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

'Yet he consistently identified which weapons were being used by which side (or rebel group) through the meticulous appraisal of photographs, satellite images, and YouTube videos, and the use of social media to seek information when he was uncertain - I've noticed with you when you take against something you unscrupulously twist things- ('unarmed protestors' - it is there , listen yu deaf person 'it is there' it is there' - - no , it wasn't , it wasn't me who was deaf) - what on earth are you about? ) Sayerslle (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

All information at some point originates with a primary source. Wikipedia relies on secondary sources to identify and fact-check the relevant primary sources. Secondary sources are not required to even name their sources, though its clearly better for the purpose of verifiability if they do. Anyway, we have

*third-party

*published

*editorial oversight

*reputation for fact checking

*use by others

*no identified conflict of interest

Except for special situations such as medical claims, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a way in which Bellingcat does not fulfill what is asked for by WP:RS or WP:V Rhoark (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

What editorial oversight? It is a university student analysing Youtube videos, in this case. Anyone can do that. There is no clear "editorial oversight" of any kind. As far as "unarmed protesters", that's not what I was concerned with. I was concerned with the removal of the phrase all together, when it was sourced. If there was an inaccuracy in the sentence, fix it. Do not wholesale remove sourced content and start weaselling around what it says. This is typical. "Meticulous use of social media" does not constitute RS. RGloucester — ☎ 15:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

People tend to be skeptical of blogs or “amateur” reporting partly because it’s not connected to a brand they recognize, but also because there’s usually not as stringent a fact-checking or editing process as at many professional news organizations. You’ve managed to overcome this perception through your scrupulousness and record of accuracy. Do you view overcoming that perception as a problem for the other writers at Bellingcat? Whenever a contributor is writing a piece that involves open-source information and verifying content, I encourage them to be as transparent as possible about how they came to their conclusion. Anyone reading it should be able to look at the same information they’ve used for the article and understand how they came to their conclusion. [...] The hope is that my audience will see the process of verification and investigation, learn from that, and participate, so they learn how verification works and become skilled investigators themselves.

Have you found a major error after publishing a story, or found someone to be untrustworthy after having initially trusted them? I’ve turned down articles in the past because I don’t feel I can understand how the potential contributor has come to their conclusions. I’ve a pretty vicious band of trolls who follow my activity closely, so failing to survive those seems to be the biggest obstacle contributors face.

http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/bellingcat_brown_moses.php?page=all

so again RGloucester saying 'there is no editorial oversight of any kind' - is a slurring over things - and 'Anyone can do that ' - is claptrap - if anyone can get profiled by the new Yorker, interviewed and quoted by masses of Rs - raise 49,000 to get bellingcat going - as if Kyiv post would print the results of the latest investigation if just anyone said ' I've looked at some youtube vids' - not 'anyone' - drivel Sayerslle (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Show me an English-speaking world-based establishment source that cites this particular report from Bellingcat, and the'll I'll concede. Untill then, it is unverifiable and non-RS in as far as I'm concerned. Of course, one thing that quote does make clear is that this Bellingcat is a "blog" or "amateur reporting", neither of which belong here. RGloucester — ☎ 17:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

'You’ve managed to overcome this perception through your scrupulousness and record of accuracy' - anyhow it is at least mentioned on the article page this investigation via KP, as it deserves to be , so whatever, for now - Sayerslle (talk) 17:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you explain why these claim have not appeared in mainstream Anglophone RS? Can you explain why there is no trace of the official investigation, and why KP acknowledged that fact? Can you acknowledge that a university student who was nowhere near Mariupol at the time of the incident in question (or ever) has no grounds for determining anything about what happened there? RGloucester — ☎ 17:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

the story has moved on for mainstream Anglophone RS - they don't care , its old history - why would they return to it ? its a specialist concern kind of thing - why isn't the fact that Kyiv pOst thought it noteworthy of any import to you at all? - like you are a better judge than the Kyiv post? - who indeed are on the spot in Ukraine, whilst you are not, but you set yourself up as the mandarin of all good judgment - absurd- the official investigation will emerge when it will , its utterly irrelevant to this investigation, and lastly, of course being on the spot is not the be all and end all - eliot Higgins on Syria and ukraine and MH-17 has been quoted at great length by RS for his great insight and has never set foot in Syria or Ukraine -he didn't write this in-depth study but he oversaw it and - well, etc , of course this painstaking analysis can have things to offerSayerslle (talk) 18:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

"Painstaking"? Are you sure you don't work for this Bellingcat? You seem to be their number-one promoter. RGloucester — ☎ 18:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

what would you call it? a 'slapdash' investigation? are you sure you don't work against this belingcat? you seem to be their number one denigrator. Sayerslle (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I demand adherence to the words of establishment mainstream anglophone reliable sources, as is necessary and demanded by our policies. This blog is clearly attempting to overthrow the establishment with its emphasis on the demos, and that simply cannot be tolerated. RGloucester — ☎ 18:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The phrases "blog" and "amateur reporting" were being used of Higgins' efforts before starting a professional publication. Even then, he was highly respected. Bellingcat has less of a track record than Higgins himself, but evidence is he exerts personal oversight over contributors. It meets all the requirements at WP:RS with flying colors, has an outstanding reputation for fact checking, and is frequently used by other reliable sources. [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you were looking for. Rhoark (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I think some of those RS mentioned above are actually not RS. The Daily Mail for one, probably some others. But the point stands. Geogene (talk) 02:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Bellingcat seems to be a blog of amateur journalists, yet on a few occasions it has been referenced by RS, including The Guardian [42], [43]. I'd suggest that where one of its reports is referenced favorably by RS, that report be considered RS, and otherwise Bellingcat content should be treated as a non-RS blog. If its reputation continues to grow, and we get some insight into its editorial control, then we can revisit it later. Geogene (talk) 02:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The Daily Telegraph

Is The Daily Telegraph a WP:reliable source? An IP-hopping editor is repeatedly removing the phrase "making New Caledonia one of the few countries or territories in the world with two recognized flags" from Flag of New Caledonia claiming that the Telegraph is "Not reliable source". They justify this on the talk page by arguing that it is "an article in the other part of the world". They use the same argument for their repeated removal of the second flag from the infobox of New Caledonia. The source says "New Caledonian Congress overwhelmingly voted to adopt the emblem of the indigenous movement ... as the nation's second official flag" and "The unusual move makes New Caledonia one of only a handful of countries ... that have two official national flags." Are there any policy based reasons why this Telegraph article is not reliable? Does the geographic location of a source impact its reliability? TDL (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Properly cited as such, and sourced to the Daily Telegraph, the claim can be made. The Tricolor is the national flag of France, of which New Caledonia is a part, and the New Caledonians appear to have chosen what the US calls a "state flag" as it is not considered a separate "country" by France. It is likely more correct to call the Tricolor the "national flag" and the new flag the "state flag" (where "state" seems likely to be a more understandable term than "collectivity"). Collect (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

By the way, where state and province flags are counted - they are far from rare, and the Daily Telegraph seems to have gotten carried away. Even Scotland, Wales and England have distinct "flags." Collect (talk) 18:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you to TDL. By motivating me to look at our Daily Telegraph article I came across the delightful name "Cockie Hoogterp" which I had never encountered before. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Definitely a reliable source. It is a 160 year old newspaper that is quoted all over the world all the time. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case

Current dispute regarding extremely topical subject matters; hence the importance of ascertaining whether or not the below-referenced are, in fact, reliable sources.

• Matthew Boyle (19 September 2012). "Emails reveal Justice Dept. regularly enlists Media Matters to spin press". Daily Caller. Retrieved 24 February 2013.
• "Emails show Justice working with Media Matters on stories that target critics". Fox News. 18 September 2012. Retrieved 24 February 2013.
• Matthew Boyle (19 September 2012). "Farenthold: Congress will likely investigate DOJ-Media Matters collusion, target group's tax-exempt status". Daily Caller. Retrieved 24 February 2013.
• Ryan J. Reilly (14 February 2013). "Top Eric Holder Aide Tracy Schmaler To Leave DOJ". Huffington Post. Retrieved 26 February 2013.
• Allen, Charlotte (2013). "Politicizing Justice". The Weekly Standard. 18 (23). The Weekly Standard LLC. Retrieved 26 February 2013.
• Evan Perez (14 February 2013). "Senior Aide to Holder Stepping Down at Justice". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 26 February 2013.
• Mike Allen (15 February 2013). "IN PRIVATE, OBAMA FLASHES ANGER OVER GOP STRAFING OF HAGEL -- Justice's Tracy Schmaler to ASGK Public Strategies -- The era of big Wall Street deals is back -- Ted Cruz shakes Senate". Politico. Retrieved 24 February 2013.

Respectfully submitted, Quis separabit? 01:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

A complete determination of reliability requires both a source and a diff of what it's used to say. Considering the naked bias of most of the sources in this list, I'd be very skeptical of relying only on the discretion of involved editors to parse the Daily Caller report. I suggest treating Daily Caller as WP:PRIMARYNEWS, and using the Fox piece (the most professional on the topic that Google turned up) as a secondary source to determine what was significant in Daily Caller's investigation. Carefully observe where Fox uses attribution, "reportedly", scare quotes, etc. Other low-quality republications of the same info add nothing worthwhile. HuffPo looks perfectly fine for reporting without analysis that Schmaler left her position. It looks like a group "Justice Watch" received emails from an FOIA request that are the same or similar to those received by Daily Caller. The least-bad secondary on that seems to be [44]. I wouldn't trust AIM for analysis, but it seems good enough to confirm for WP the existence and notability of the Justice Watch report. Rhoark (talk) 16:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Use of cites not directly needed for the sentence to which they are appended including Right Web and Yale Daily News for BLP claims

(From WP:BLP/N)

The following single sentence is the entirety of the removed text, including refcites, with the reason being the assertion that this Right Web is an "attack site". Here is a link to the series of edits removing material and sources, and here is a link to the talk page discussion.

<blockquote>''Kagan spent 13 years as a Senior Associate with the [[Carnegie Endowment for International Peace]], before joining the [[Brookings Institution]] as a senior fellow in the Center on United States and Europe in September 2010.<ref>[http://www.brookings.edu/media/NewsReleases/2010/0908_kagan.aspx Robert Kagan joins Brookings]</ref><ref>[http://www.carnegieendowment.org/experts/index.cfm?fa=expert_view&expert_id=16 Profile on the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace site]</ref><ref>Robert Kagan, "I Am Not a Straussian", ''Weekly Standard'' 11: 20 (February 6, 2006)</ref><ref>[http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=30540 "Robert Kagan Follows Father but Forges Own Path"], Andrew Mangino, [[Yale Daily News]]</ref><ref>[http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1241 Robert Kagan profile on "Right Web"]''</ref></blockquote>

I suggested there that the pertinent cites for the claims of fact would be any Brookings source stating that he, indeed, worked there and a Carnegie source stating his position with them. The Weekly Standard cite appears to be self-written, so of problematic value as to anything other than statements of fact. The Yale Daily News, AFAICT, is a student publication which is of no value for the sentence to which it is appended, and the RightWeb editorial is also not needed for a claim of fact (indeed is not specifically needed at all here) but which also contains clear opinions which would preclude it being used as an RS for claims of fact. The discussion indeed focused on using the opinions cites as a basis to label living persons as "neoconservative" in Wikipedia's voice. The Right Web cite is clearly an opinion piece and really of no use here as far as I can tell.

Are the last two cites usable at all to state in Wikipedia's voice (I opined that such a use would require that opinions must be properly cited as opinions) that Kagan and others of his family are "neoconservative"? Is it proper to use problematic cites for a simple claim where absolutely RS cites are readily found and used? See Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Robert_Kagan and a second section with the same name at the bottom of the page, Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Neoconservativism_-_Victoria_Nuland and Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Neoconservatism_-_Frederick_Kagan where the same sources and arguments to categorise them is made. See also List of Neoconservatives (listing towards bottom of article) and diff [45] [46] where specific living persons are categorized on the basis of an opinion article, and so on. Thanks. Collect (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• It is not quite clear to me what you're asking. It might help if you could condense your post for readability and clarity. As best I can tell, the question is whether reliable sources describe Robert Kagan as a "neoconservative". The answer is obviously yes, since 5 seconds of work yields high-quality sources as Der Spiegel, The Guardian, Politico, and so on. We shouldn't use low-quality sources like RightWeb, or borderline sources like the Yale Daily News, but then there's no need to do so—the question is moot since high-quality sources are available. MastCell ^Talk 12:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Publishers Weekly as source in author article

Is it appropriate to include Publishers Weekly's review of Orson Scott Card's novella "Hamlet's Father" in Card's article? User:Collect claims it is a BLP violation to include a mention of the publication's brief negative review, since PW points out that the novella attempts to link homosexuality to pedophilia, while I argue that PW is a major industry publication whose reviews of full-length novels are not usually much longer than this and that BLP definitely does not bar criticism of an author's creations, which is what this is. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

If the article describes the author's work in some detail then of course reviews can be consulted, no matter whether they are negative or positive. However the reviews mentioned should be some representative for reviews as a hole. So don't use (only) a negative review, when most revoews are actually positive and vice versa. I see nothing wrong with using Publisher's Weekly for reviews or biographical information even. --Kmhkmh (talk) 18:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The question is:

Is a PW single paragraph review a reliable source to state in a BLP:

Trade journal Publishers Weekly criticized Card's "flimsy novella", stating that the main purpose of it was to attempt to link homosexuality to pedophilia.

Where one would surmise that saying a person was attempt(ing)ing to link homosexuality to pedophilia as a fact in Wikipedia's voice is a "contentious claim" per se. Is saying a person is attempting to link homosexuality to pedophilia a "contentious claim" or not? is the actual question here. I note the editor above also states it as a "fact". Also note that there is a very extensive section in the Orson Scott Card BLP on "views on homosexuality" (over three hundred words on the topic) and thus there is also a WEIGHT issue present. Collect (talk) 17:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The sentence is an accurate summary of the Publishers Weekly review (though I'm rather hoping we specify which novella was reviewed), and Publishers Weekly is a reliable source for book reviews. As a short review it certainly doesn't deserve more than one sentence, and as a relevant comment, I can't see how we can give it less than one. (Maybe if there were multiple reviews that said the same thing, we could write that in one sentence?) --GRuban (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Card specifically denied any imputation about homosexuality in the novella, and the claim is under an ArbCom area decision regarding charges about homosexuality. IMO, the review is an opinion piece,and in no way should its opinions be placed in Wikipedia's voice. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree completely. Reviews are opinion pieces and should not be given in Wikipedia's voice. The proposed sentence (assuming it is clear which novella is being discussed) is good. --GRuban (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in the text Collect removed the novella was identified by title, as another secondary source which mentioned the PW review was also present and preceded it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I gave the entire sentence relevant to the PW review above. Your imputation that I "removed" anything from my post here is abhorrent. The entire paragraph was:

Card has also expressed his opinion that paraphilia and homosexuality are linked. In a 2004 essay entitled "Homosexual 'Marriage' and Civilization", Card wrote: "The dark secret of homosexual society—the one that dares not speak its name—is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally."[60][non-primary source needed] Card's 1980 novel Songmaster depicts a homosexual relationship between a young man and a 15-year-old boy. Card described this relationship as "a mutually self-destructive path" and stated: "I was not trying to show that homosexuality was 'beautiful' or 'natural'—in fact, sex of any kind is likely to be 'beautiful' only to the participants, and it is hard to make a case for the naturalness of such an obviously counter-evolutionary trend as same-sex mating."[56][non-primary source needed] Additionally, in Card's 2011 novella Hamlet's Father, which re-imagines the backstory of Shakespeare's play Hamlet, Card was accused of directly trying to link the king's pedophilia with homosexuality. The novella prompted public outcry and its publishers were inundated with complaints.[61][62][non-primary source needed] Trade journal Publishers Weekly criticized Card's "flimsy novella", stating that the main purpose of it was to attempt to link homosexuality to pedophilia.[63] Card responded to the claim: "...[T]here is no link whatsoever between homosexuality and pedophilia in this book. Hamlet's father, in the book, is a pedophile, period. I don't show him being even slightly attracted to adults of either sex. It is the reviewer, not me, who has asserted this link, which I would not and did not make."[62][non-primary source needed]

Which is entirely aimed apparently at setting an extended argument that Card considers homosexuality and pedophilia in the same category, and then gives him one sentence of rebuttal. And I noted that the link to pedophilia was cited only to PW and not to any other sources (The Guardian only links to the PW review for the precise claim - the Rain Tree review is not cited in this BLP and says "The old king was actually murdered by Horatio, in revenge for molesting him as a young boy" but appears to use "Card has publicly stated that homosexuals will destroy America" as his primary basis for that assertion. As Card specifically denies linking homosexuality to pedophilia, and the basis source is a very short PW review, then we are hitting a "contentious claim" - based on the assumed anti-gay bias of Card to assert something Card says in not in the novella (retelling of Hamlet). Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Collect doth protest too much, methinks. MastCell ^Talk 14:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, you're now denying that you removed this text? You can't have your cake and eat it too; if you want to be able to indignantly cry that you didn't remove it, put it back in the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• It is reasonable to use the Publishers Weekly review as a source, provided it has proper in-text attribution and is not presented in Wikipedia's voice. As Collect would ordinarily be the first to point out, Publisher's Weekly is a reliable source for opinion, and can be used as such here. There is no WP:BLP issue in accurately conveying the content of a book review from a reputable source. MastCell ^Talk 12:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, of course PW is a reliable source for the proposed content. It's attributed and presented with appropriate context. It's also not an isolated viewpoint.- MrX 13:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Did you note The Guardian used the PW as its source for that claim? LOL! The other source (book review) does not make the claim in as strong terms, to be sure, at all, so you are saying The Guardian (which used PW) and PW are distinct sources in your opinion? Clue: Sources which quote the same source do not become multiple sources. Really. Collect (talk) 13:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Ludicrous. The Guardian didn't simply reprint a wire story. Of course it's a distinct source.- MrX 14:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Read The Guardian article, please:

Subterranean produced its limited edition, signed, 1,000-copy run of the book this spring, with the release largely falling under the radar, apart from a damning review from trade journal Publishers Weekly which said that its focus was "primarily on linking homosexuality with the life-destroying horrors of paedophilia, a focus most fans of possibly bisexual Shakespeare are unlikely to appreciate". This is a view Card has espoused in the past, writing in 2004 that "the dark secret of homosexual society – the one that dares not speak its name – is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally".

I read that as saying the only place initially making the homosexuality-pedophilia claim was the single PW review which it quotes. I do not know how else one can interpret "under the radar" and "apart from" can be interpreted. And again -- citing a source does not make it a separate source -- The Guardian, in fact, says it basically was the only initial source for such a claim at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Did you read the article?

""Here's the punch line: Old King Hamlet was an inadequate king because he was gay, an evil person because he was gay, and, ultimately, a demonic and ghostly father of lies who convinces young Hamlet to exact imaginary revenge on innocent people," writes William Alexander. "The old king was actually murdered by Horatio, in revenge for molesting him as a young boy – along with Laertes, and Rosencrantz, and Guildenstern, thereby turning all of them gay … Hamlet is damned for all the needless death he inflicts, and Dead Gay Dad will now do gay things to him for the rest of eternity: 'Welcome to Hell, my beautiful son. At last we'll be together as I always longed for us to be.'" "
— The Guardian

Referencing this.

Of course, there are other sources: Salon, Wired, New Statesman, The Telegraph, and Advocate, and Huffington Post. I'm straining to assume good faith here, but it's difficult not to see the obvious GAMING in these objections.- MrX 14:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of anything whatsoever? If so, you are substantially errant. My goal here, at Johann Hari, Charlie Crist and any of several thousand BLPs so far is consistent. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• The source is fine; it's a very good source for a review of this sort. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• Publisher's Weekly is a first rate source and is one of the key sources we use in the library field to evaluate works. It is unquestionably a reliable source. I should also point out that it is very common in biographical reference works to cite reviews of an author's work in the entry on an author, so I see no reason why we should not do so here. Since PW is a leading mainstream source of such reviews, issues of partisanship, obscurity, undue weight of fringe viewpoints, and BLP do not apply as they would if we were citing a review from, say, Breitbart. Gamaliel (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. There is no WP:BLP issue in quoting a book review from a reputable source such as this. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Is www.bwtf.com a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia?

I am curious as to how one can determine whether a particular web site is a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia.

The site in question appears to be a fan site, but I'm open minded to different standards perhaps being okay for toy sites and toy-related articles, if the community has weighed in on such matters in previous consensus discussions.

Is www.bwtf.com a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia? Cheers. N2e (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

It does not seem to be a reliable source per WP:SPS, but self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. According to Ben, he has been interviewed by a few notable publications. If this is verified to be true, then that lends some credibility. Do other reliable sources cite his website? If so WP:USEBYOTHERS factors in.- MrX 13:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I would add a caveat to what Mr. X says... assuming that the author can be considered an expert, then any material taken from his self published source should be phrased as being his opinion (ie attributed) and not stated as unattributed fact. Blueboar (talk) 15:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for offering views on the matter. It was related to a mongo 10 kByte addition to this article List of Beast Wars Neo Characters by an IP editor, where much of the edit was totally unsourced, and some parts of it were sourced with the web site I asked about. I BRD'd it and have started a discussion on the Talk page. Haven't yet heard back from the editor who had added the large edit. N2e (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Welcome2theBronx

This discussion has been deleted by Joestanza as Blueboar suggested this is not the correct venue for this discussion. Diff; discussion here. Epic Genius (talk) 20:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Soka Gakkai

Before being threatened with a topic ban again I would like a third opinion on the section about “Peace activities”. There are a number of links (SG links) indicating that some SGI adherents like doing gymnastics and building human pyramids. I’d like a third opinion if there is enough evidence that this IS an official SGI peace activity and if the reference stated are concrete enough? Posted this message earlier on the Neutral point of view/Noticeboard‎. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Please review the boxes at the top of the page, in particular what information should be included with a request. Rhoark (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Well the sources given are [[47]], [[48]] and [[49]]. I am not sure if one could conclude with those sources given that “Soka Gakkai considers dance and other performance art to be a major aspect of its peace activities” and secondly I am not sure if that is rather promotional. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The paper by Cornelio looks reliable for such a claim. Talk page consensus should be sought for whether it needs to be attributed to the author or stated in Wikipedia's voice. The websites of the event and organization would only be reliable for uncontroversial claims about themselves. Rhoark (talk) 22:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Hillel Ticktin ref

Some material (Summing up his work, Ticktin says: "My work on the political economy of the USSR showed … " ) in a BLP is ref'd to this site [50]. It appears to be the personal blog of a woman in Ontario. Is this RS? Capitalismojo (talk) 00:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments? Capitalismojo (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No, but it looks like the University of Southern Queensland may think it is.- MrX 01:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You've noticed that that page is just copying off Wikipedia, yes? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course. I should have put a next to my comment.- MrX 03:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear, there is no disagreement that this blog isn't RS? Capitalismojo (talk) 03:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The page said that this comes from an e-mail interview with Ticktin. While I personally think the interview probably happened and he probably said these things, it's not a reliable source. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Freezerbox Magazine (freezerbox.com)

Is Freezerbox.com a proper external source on the Robert Kagan BLP?

[51] is used as an external source for that article. It quite appears to be a self-published source and the article appears to be entirely editorial in nature, and IMO not a valid external source per WP:EL

Infused with the righteousness of the true believer, neo-conservatives are terrifyingly fanciful when it comes to international affairs. Robert Kagan and William Kristol, two neo-con architects of GOP policy, recently penned an essay in the conservative National Review entitled "The Present Danger" in which they explicitly held up the Cold War era Reagan model as appropriate for the next president. While the authors admit that the new Present Danger is not incarnate in any adversary--"it has no name"--they nonetheless recommend that the US spend an extra $60-100 billion per year above current defense budgets to combat it. This money would be devoted to enhancing America's ability to project force abroad and the pursuance of "regime change," i.e., the invasion of foreign countries and the overthrow of leaders unpalatable to Mr. Kagan and Mr. Kristol. Flagrant disregard for international law and arms racing is to make the world safe for democracy--again. is the salient marterial which the editor adding this external link seems to think important for readers.

Query: Is such an editorial from a self-published source a valid external link? WP:EL states Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No. It's like a blog without references. is a 01:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Right Web as external link

Robert Kagan profile on "Right Web" is added also as an external link. It is also editorial in nature, and does not offer "research" or other WP:EL rationales for its inclusion. The discussions on the BLP offer no consensus in favour of including these sources as "proof" that Kagan is a "neoconservative" and this may be a means of presenting such a claim where the talk page disallowed the claim per WP:CONSENSUS.

Query: Is the Right Web editorial biography a valid external link where the inclusion of that source was specifically disallowed on the talk page discussions? Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Given that numerous high-quality sources describe Kagan as neoconservative (NY Times, BBC, etc. etc.) use of a lower quality source is unnecessary. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No. I would not consider this EL source a RS for contentious claims in a BLP. I suggest that unless the subject has self-identified as a "neoconservative" calling him one would require that to be described as an opinion. E.G. "The New York Times and the BBC have described Mr. Kagan as a neoconservative." (refs). Capitalismojo (talk) 14:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The question is skewed and a misrepresentation has been made regarding Talk page discussion, because the source was not being used in relation to the claim that Kagan is a neoconservative at all. There are many better sources for that.

The citation to the Right Web profile, which is a tertiary source containing 24 sources that includes multiple NYT and WP articles and is fairly neutral, has been in the Robert Kagan article with consensus continually since May 2007, when it was first added as an External link[52]. Here is the link to the Talk thread addressing its deletion[53].

It was claimed to be an "attack site" because it characterizes the public figures profiled there as "militarists" on the webpage.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 01:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Right Web's declared purpose is partisan: "Tracking militarists’ efforts to influence U.S. foreign policy" [54], ["assesses the work of prominent ... individuals ... who promote militarist U.S. foreign and defense policies" http://rightweb.irc-online.org/about/]. However, the word "militarist" does not appear in the biography of Robert Kagan, not even in the nasty stitches holding together quotes from its (weak) sources. Thus, the website's "profile" is not serious.

The sources are mostly Kagan's writings and newspaper or quarterly journalists and pundits, rather than academic researchers publishing in peer reviewed journals or books. The quotes are linked by undocumented partisan assertions. For example, there are no citations supporting this original research:

"Israel-centred neoconservatives, for whom Obama’s “weakness” and “appeasement” in dealing with perceived adversaries have become a mantra over the past five years, have been quick to use the Ukraine crisis to argue for toughening Washington’s position in the Middle East...."[55]

The sources are weak, but one should beware of miscounting duplicates, which might suggest that this was a serious resource: E.g., Journalist Horowitz's one article [1,3,7,12] and Kagan's own writings are repeatedly cited. is a 01:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Lovearth.net

Lovearth.net seems painfully non-RS. It is a personal blog of conspiracy theories. It is being used extensively at the General Motors streetcar conspiracy article [[56]]. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:28, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No, it's clearly not, and it tries to deploy a Java (malware?) app, so hell no.- MrX 14:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No, Lovearth.net doesn't look like a reliable source. But I can't find it used anywhere in the article, presumably because it's been removed. This was a reprint of Snell's original 1995 article which appeared in The New Electric Railway Journal, which is a reliable source. It has been reprinted in various places, notably www.tompaine.com. That's where Lovearth.net got it, and also a GM site which is already cited in the article, in the External links.

Since the article seems to be about a controversy touched off by Snell, I think Snell's 1995 article should be cited. So I would suggest restoring the material that cited Lovearth.net, but this time to cite the reprint at www.tompaine.com (archived but hard to read) or the one the GM site instead of the one at Lovearth.net. I'd also suggest including Snell's 1974 statement before Congress, which is another basic document in this controversy. I added a link to that in the External links.

I'd also add one more thing, which is that the article reads like a debunking article, with traces of edit warring like defensive footnotes. I'd suggest getting rid of the POV language in the lead, like "urban legend" and "simplistic conspiracy theory thinking, bordering on paranoid delusions". This is nothing more than name calling. It could be deleted without changing the substance of the article. And there are too many adjectives telling the reader what to think, like "controversial" and "briefly". From an NPOV perspective none of this is desirable. – Margin1522 (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't seem reliable. Given it is a a blog known for conspiracy theories wouldn't that also make it also a primary source? Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

If you replaced "Urban Legend" with "myth" would that work? That's exactly how Bob Post described it. [[57]]. I don't think "coachbuilt.com" can be described as a "GM site," and is the Snell piece an article from NERJ, or,essentially a letter to the editor?Anmccaff (talk) 02:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

So we are in argeement that this malware infested blog should not be used as RS. It is by the way still being used at the article. It is just being cited (and linked to)in a non-standard way. Capitalismojo (talk) 04:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

World Vision International

The World Vision International article has a list of well known people who endorse the organization. Is it appropriate to use a youtube video of of the individual endorsing World Vision International, that are also happen to be promotional videos for WVI? The only purpose of referencing the video was to prove that the individuals actually endorsed WVI. There are 14 people listed in this section and I did this for several of them including Alex Trabek, Hugh Jackman and Sarah McLaughlin. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Not really. The Hugh Jackman video for example doesn't support a claim that he endorses World Vision International or even that he is affiliated with it. It's little more than a commercial that he may or may not have been paid for. The video is a primary source, so its use as a reference is very limited. The most you could say is that he appeared in a video promoting World Vision International. Likewise, the Sarah Mclachlan video could be used to state that she appeared in a video promoting World Vision International, discussed her visit to the Killing Fields in Cambodia, and then sang a song.- MrX 04:44, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Somalis in the United Kingdom

There are a couple of debates going on at the talk page for Somalis in the United Kingdom, one on education statistics and situation of Somalis in 2004? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This is the material I have suggested adding to the article, based on that source: "In the mid 2000s, research showed completed education within the Somali community to be low. For instance, in 2005 the Institute for Public Policy Research published analysis of Labour Force Survey data for the period 2000-04, and found that, of Somali-born immigrants who had arrived between 1990 and 2004 (who made up 761 of 812 Somali-born people in the sample), 50.1 per cent had no qualification and 2.8 per cent had higher qualifications". Cordless Larry (talk) 08:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

While we're at it, I'd also like views on whether this Economist article can be appropriately used as a source on British Somalis' educational one on use of religion data from the 2001 census. One editor is claiming that historical data can't be used about these topics, as the sources provide data on a previous time period, and in some cases there is more recent data available. He's citing WP:SCHOLARSHIP and claiming that the sources are dated. Can I get a view on this? Mine is that it's fine to include historical data based on reliable sources, as long as it's not presented as if it represents the situation in 2015. Several different sources are being discussed, but to give an example, is it appropriate to use this one to present data on the educational status. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The editor above has been trying to add statistical data on educational qualifications and religious affiliation from as far back as 14 years ago to the page. This material was originally phrased in the present tense, evidently with the intent to suggest that it represented the current situation. All of this material is also contradicted by newer data, including a 2010 education study that the editor had himself originally linked to and newer data on religious affiliation. The editor has queried on various venues and sought a third opinion; this is the third venue where this same material has been posted, reaching the limit of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Several other editors besides myself explained to him that it is inappropriate to use old statistics to reflect the current situation when newer stats are available. The editor subsequently insisted that he just wanted to cite some of this old data in an historical context, although I explained to him that the figures were contradicted even at the time of their publication by other data. Just as an example, a 2002 Africa Education Trust and London Learning and Skills Council report indicates that: "In general the Somali community are highly educated. Approximately half had completed secondary education and a further fifth of those interviewed had completed university. Most Somalis had attended education or training courses in the UK and over half had done a course at FE or HE level. Most Somali women had accessed education or training in the UK." The Economist editorial he links to above likewise does not identify from where it culled its purported nationwide education figure. By contrast, the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no such nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known [58]. As the editor also indicated that he had a different interpretation of the term "outdated" in WP:SCHOLARSHIP's stipulation that "some scholarly material may be outdated, in competition with alternative theories, or controversial within the relevant field[...] try to cite present scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent", one of the other editors explained that outdated means that the data has been superceded by more recent information. Middayexpress (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I won't comment on this account of my behaviour other than to suggest that people visit Talk:Somalis in the United_Kingdom#Somali Education and judge for themselves, and to say I'm not aware of anyone on that page who has disagreed with me, apart from Middayexpress. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, just on the point about the use of the present tense: I think I was clear with my original edits what time period the data was from. Of course, suggestions for better phrasing are always welcome. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's not quite true. There's Inayity, AcidSnow on his page, and Maunus on what "outdated" data actually means, for starters. Neil also doesn't seem to disagree that newer figures supercede the older ones. At any rate, I invite you to identify for the first time there just where exactly that Economist piece got its WP:REDFLAG figure from, and why it conflicts with the actual, official government figures. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Inayity said: "But if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article. I guess you could state the period in which it was accurate and that would fix that problem". Stating the period in which the data was accurate is precisely what I'm proposing to do with the IPPR LFS data - see my suggested wording on the talk page. AcidSnow does appear to agree with you, but Maunus is saying that the data you're citing is not a more recent equivalent of the IPPR data. I don't think it's my job to do research into where the Economist got their data from. There is partial data for the UK, so presumably it's that. Your demands all sound a bit WP:OR to me though. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed: "if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article". Also see below. Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

And the rest of the quote, where Inayity suggests a solution to that problem? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

See his latest clarification below. And yes, per WP:REDFLAG, it certainly does matter where that piece got its figure from. Especially since that number conflicts with the official government local authority figures; it is literally half that of some of them ("any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources[...] red flags that should prompt extra caution include: surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"). Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Given the wide variation in GCSE results across the country, it's not all surprising that there's a difference between a national figure and results for Camden schools alone. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The economist is a reliable source. The article is not an editorial. Spumuq (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not whether the news outlet The Economist itself is reliable that is the question, but rather whether that specific article is. It does not indicate from where it derived its WP:REDFLAG nationwide education figure. This is perhaps not surprising since the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no reliable nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known [59]. Local authorities such as the Camden Education Commission likewise indicate an altogether different, higher figure [60]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

And I have to remark while BBC or the economist might be RS in principle we do have take a case-by-case approach. B/c if they are quoting stats without a source it is a problem. And with the volume of nonsense you read in these "respectable" places we need to be careful.--Inayity (talk) 20:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, User:Inayity. Note that several independent reviews indicate that the piece is factually inacurate in several aspects (e.g. [61]). What do you make of that review? Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

On a side note this is something which vexes me about Wikipedia. Often so-called RS source talk a lot of nonsense but the communities rebuttal is silenced from Wiki b/c it fails RS. I am dealing with this issue all the time. The African American community goes crazy at something but those voices are from grassroots org etc. But I feel i digress. --Inayity (talk) 20:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I actually think that's very relevant, Inayity. I'm more than happy to cite the Economist article and then cite articles such as the one Middayexpress suggests, noting that they contest the characterisation in the Economist article. I think that's a better approach than trying to find the one, "true" source. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Although I should also say that this community source, which predates the Economist article, features the exact same GCSE statistics. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a better source, but it doesn't identify the original examination that it was taken from either. Which governmental body administered the examination(s), if any, and when? Both the Camden Council and Tower Hamlets local administrations report GCSEs over twice as high. In 2012, the official GCSE stats in Camden schools were a full 37 percentage points higher (page 13 [62]). Middayexpress (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't really suggesting it as an alternative source, just pointing out that not all Somali community groups disagree with the figures in the Economist article. I'm not sure it is a better source though - it gives no indication of data sources, whereas the charts in the Economist article do at least state the ONS as a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The Economist piece does not indicate that its GCSE figure was taken from the ONS. It doesn't identify any governmental body as the source of its figure. For the same reason, there's no telling where the other organization got its figure from. What's certain is that it wasn't inspired by that Economist piece, as it predates it by several months. In fact, pretty much the entire community takes umbrage at the piece [63]. Thus, what there is here is a redflag figure of uncertain derivation, which to boot is contradicted (and by a substantial margin at that) by the very government bodies that actually administer the GCSE examinations. Middayexpress (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, good point Inayity. In this instance, it's a pretty clear WP:REDFLAG fail. The piece doesn't even bother identifying where it culled its figure from, which is literally half that of the official government figures. Compare it, for example, with the Camden Education Commission's different, much higher figure for 2011 [64]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem with pointing to Camden though, is that it's just one London borough, and not necessarily representative of the UK as a whole, or indeed London (see figure 2 of this source, which makes it clear how widely Somali pupils' GCSE performance varies across London). It's perfectly possible that Somali pupils do well in Camden but not that well nationally. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit report uses a series of case studies at various London schools to represent the Somali student community as a whole. It concludes that the overall attainment of Somali pupils is rising and is directly related to a number of factors including mobility and especially relative command of English ("the evidence is that once Somali children reach a competent level of English, they forge ahead in their learning and can reach the highest standards" [65]). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Here's an idea. How about, rather than using the Economist source for the GSCE figures, we use this? It's not UK-wide in its coverage, but it does cover England (with some caveats that we could note). It happens to give a figure of 33.2 per cent 5 A*–C grades at GCSE for 2010-11, which is the same as the Economist. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That paper may perhaps be where that Economist piece got its figure from, but there's no way of knowing for sure since it is doesn't indicate this. The paper includes a caveat that its data is not robust. In its Table 6.1, it also compares the data against the 2003 England mean rather than the contemporaneous 2011 one. Hence, its inconsistency with the local authority data, and extreme scores for certain student groups like Portuguese and Yemeni (over 40 percentage points below the England mean?). For Camden schools, the official data for a number of these student populations is instead substantially higher (66% GSCE in 2011 and 70% GSCE in 2012 for Somali pupils [66]). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Where does it say that it's comparing with the 2003 mean? The table looks like it compares the 2010-11 figures for Somalis with the 2010-11 mean to me, but I'm happy to be corrected. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

It's in the table's second column ("Mean % difference from England mean, 2003, excluding maths and English GCSE"). The England mean is unchanged because it is from the same year, 2003. Middayexpress (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Are we looking at the same table (6.1)? It's in the column headed "Mean % difference from England mean, 2010–2011, including maths and English GCSE"! Cordless Larry (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that looks like the column. It's strange how Portuguese and Yemeni are over 40 percentage points below the England mean in that Table 6.1, yet the paper offers no explanation for this. It also says that it collected the data from the local authorities that actually administered the exams. These single GCSE percentages are thus not in fact official government averages, but rather averages that the authors themselves later tabulated through some obscure process. This would explain the wide discrepancy between these figures and the actual official local authority figures (e.g. [67]). Middayexpress (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of other sources that confirm that Portuguese and Yemeni pupils are amongst the poorest performing, so I don't think that's inconsistent. The wide discrepancy is between a national figure calculated by Rutter, and a figure for Camden - i.e. one London borough. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Not just Camden, obviously. Many other local authorities -- which actually administer the exams -- report official GCSE results substantially higher than that of the IPPR's unofficial, interpreted average. For Tower Hamlets, where almost 80% of Somalis in the UK live, the local authority reports that in 2011-2012, 58% of Somali students achieved five or more A*–Cs grades at GCSE in subjects including English and Maths. This was slightly above the overall average. The girls were actually much higher than the average, at 70%; the boys were closer to the overall GCSE average at 49%. Middayexpress (talk) 16:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The nature of an average is that some individual areas will be above it and others below it. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. And the official GCSE average in 2011-2012 for the largest concentration of Somali students is slightly above the overall average. Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Iranian sources for biography: Iran Book News Agency, Islamic Republic News Agency, and Tehran Times

Are the "Iran Book News Agency," Tehran Times, and the Islamic Republic News Agency reliable sources for a biography of an Iranian soldier of the Iraq-Iran War - in this case for Ahmad Keshvari? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Possibly. Are you able to link to the newspaper articles and tell us what content is being supported by those sources?- MrX 18:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Two are English news websites, "Iran Book News Agency"[68] and Tehran Times [69] the third source, Islamic Republic News Agency, has a website for English and a site for Farsi. Ism schism (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The newspaper sources would generally be considered reliable. Iran Book News Agency, is not useful as a source per my comments in the section below.- MrX 19:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. IRNA is a government controlled newspaper and as such serves the same role as press releases published by corporations: it is not an independent news source but instead an instrument of policy. Today's headlines include:

• "Social Networks have to be Used to Serve National Interests"
• "Iran Aluminum Output Exceeds 290,000 tonnes"
• "End of Dollar Domination over Iran's Economy"
• "Iran space program: sky is not the limit"
• "Book on Leader’s vision of Islamic theology released in U.S."

Its just a mouthpiece for the government, and reads pretty much like Pravda did in the 1970s. Its about as reliable a source as a press release or television advertisement. I'd say the same is probably true for the Tehran Times, but I'll eat my words if someone can point out an article that is in any direct or indirect way critical of any government policy or which is out of line with the government's position on any subject. Formerly 98 (talk) 19:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Ahmad Keshvari

In the Ahmad Keshvari deletion discussion, which of these sources can be used to reliably establish the notability of Iranian pilot Ahmad Keshvari?

• "Simorgh TV series: In 1992, Iranian television made a series that was about pilots of the western war zone such as Ali Akbar Shiroodi, Ahmad Keshvari, and Soheilian." (cited by User:AliAkar and User:Mhhossein)
• "Flight Wing is the name of the book that reflects the life of Ahmad Keshvari which presented at the 26th Tehran International Book Fair." (cited by User:AliAkar) (presumable description of book)

--Anders Feder (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you need to provide more information. Was the TV series a documentary, or fiction based on real life events? Are there specific episodes entirely about the subject, or was the subject's name merely mentioned. The second source does not seem to be at all useful for establishing notability.- MrX 18:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

@AliAkar: @Mhhossein: Can you provide the information requested?--Anders Feder (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Adam Smith Institute

Can the following article from Adam Smith Institute be used in Gamergate controversy?. Note that it makes a contentious BLP claim therefore I am asking here. Avono (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I would say no, with the exception of non-self-serving claims about the institute.- MrX 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I will not comment on this particular source right now, but I think it is a recurrent problem of how to evaluate the reliability of things like NGOs and think tanks. WP:IRS mostly pertains to newspapers and peer-reviewed journals, but there is a universe of other sources. IRS is a guideline that defers to WP:V and WP:OR. Some things that should be ascertained:

• Is it WP:THIRDPARTY?
• Is it WP:SECONDARY?
• Is the publishing organization independent of the material's author, or is it a proxy for him/her?
• Is there a conflict of interest?
• How is the publisher's reputation?
• Is there use by others?
• Does the source identify the material as news, blogging, opinion, or research?
• Is the claim that is to be used in Wikipedia an instance of WP:BLP?

Here are some prior noticeboard discussions about think tanks: [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] Rhoark (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Brooklyn Lee

• Generally, I've found that reliable sources for the real names of pornographic actors are hard to find, but I added this (from the International Business Times) to the above article. I was then reverted by Morbidthoughts and then directed to this discussion (from four years ago) that suggested that a consensus had been reached that IBT is not a reliable source. After reading that discussion, I fail to see that a consensus had been met after all, so I re-added the information while suggesting that if Morbidthoughts still disagrees, to start a new RSN thread. S/he simply re-reverted my addition, so I am starting a thread here myself. Does anyone else object to International Business Times being a reliable source? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources for real names are hard to find because the subjects intentionally conceal it. This is actually a WP:BLPN issue. As I mentioned on your talk page, "The burden of proof lies on the editor who adds the material. The issue of real names of pornographic actors is contentious enough that it requires exceptional sources. The fact that multiple users have disputed the reliability of IBT guides us to err on the side of omission." Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)