The History Book Club discussion

This is the thread for the discussion of the December Book of the Month - Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates.

BOOK OF THE MONTH - DECEMBER - BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME by Ta-Nehisi Coates

by Ta-Nehisi Coates

Synopsis:

Hailed by Toni Morrison as “required reading,” a bold and personal literary exploration of America’s racial history by “the single best writer on the subject of race in the United States” (The New York Observer)

“This is your country, this is your world, this is your body, and you must find some way to live within the all of it.”

In a profound work that pivots from the biggest questions about American history and ideals to the most intimate concerns of a father for his son, Ta-Nehisi Coates offers a powerful new framework for understanding our nation’s history and current crisis. Americans have built an empire on the idea of “race,” a falsehood that damages us all but falls most heavily on the bodies of black women and men—bodies exploited through slavery and segregation, and, today, threatened, locked up, and murdered out of all proportion. What is it like to inhabit a black body and find a way to live within it? And how can we all honestly reckon with this fraught history and free ourselves from its burden?

Between the World and Me is Ta-Nehisi Coates’s attempt to answer these questions in a letter to his adolescent son. Coates shares with his son—and readers—the story of his awakening to the truth about his place in the world through a series of revelatory experiences, from Howard University to Civil War battlefields, from the South Side of Chicago to Paris, from his childhood home to the living rooms of mothers whose children’s lives were taken as American plunder. Beautifully woven from personal narrative, reimagined history, and fresh, emotionally charged reportage, Between the World and Me clearly illuminates the past, bracingly confronts our present, and offers a transcendent vision for a way forward.

Praise for Between the World and Me

“I’ve been wondering who might fill the intellectual void that plagued me after James Baldwin died. Clearly it is Ta-Nehisi Coates. The language of Between the World and Me, like Coates’s journey, is visceral, eloquent, and beautifully redemptive. And its examination of the hazards and hopes of black male life is as profound as it is revelatory. This is required reading.”—Toni Morrison

“Ta-Nehisi Coates is the James Baldwin of our era, and this is his cri de coeur. A brilliant thinker at the top of his powers, he has distilled four hundred years of history and his own anguish and wisdom into a prayer for his beloved son and an invocation to the conscience of his country. Between the World and Me is an instant classic and a gift to us all.”—Isabel Wilkerson, author of The Warmth of Other Suns

“Immense, multifaceted . . . This is a poet’s book, revealing the sensibility of a writer to whom words—exact words—matter. . . . As a meditation on race in America, haunted by the bodies of black men, women, and children, Coates’s compelling, indeed stunning, work is rare in its power to make you want to slow down and read every word. This is a book that will be hailed as a classic of our time.”—Publishers Weekly (starred review)

“The powerful story of a father’s past and a son’s future . . .

About the Author

Coates is an American writer, journalist, and educator. He is a national correspondent for The Atlantic, where he writes about cultural, social and political issues, particularly as regards African-Americans. Coates has worked for The Village Voice, Washington City Paper, and Time. He has contributed to The New York Times Magazine, The Washington Post, The Washington Monthly, O, and other publications. In 2008 he published a memoir, The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood. His second book, Between the World and Me, was released in July 2015. It won the 2015 National Book Award for Nonfiction. He was the recipient of a "Genius Grant" from the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation in 2015.

Remember the following:

Everyone is welcome but make sure to use the goodreads spoiler function.

If you come to the discussion after folks have finished reading it, please feel free to post your comments as we will always come back to the thread to discuss the book.

The rules

You must follow the rules of the History Book Club and also:

First rule of Buddy Read:
Respect other people's opinions, no matter how controversial you think they may be.

Second rule of Buddy Read:
Always, always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps:

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this:
(view spoiler)

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this:

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Chapter 1, p. 23
(view spoiler)[I know everything now about chapter one and I am going to post it here - oops I better place this in a spoiler alert so I do not ruin the book for others (hide spoiler)]

If you are raising a question/issue for the group about the book, you don't need to put that in a spoiler, but if you are citing something specific, it might be good to use a spoiler.

By using spoilers, you don't ruin the experience of someone who is reading slower or started later.

Thanks.

You can copy and paste below to get your spoiler right:

<spoiler>Put Text Here</spoiler>

Between the World and Me

Table of Contents

Epigraph - 1
Chapter I - 4
Chapter II - 74
Chapter III - 134

Suggested Syllabus

Week One - December 7th - December 13th

Epigraph and Chapter I - pp. 1 - 73

Week Two - December 14th - December 20th

Chapter II - pp. 74-133

Week Three and Four - December 21st - January 3rd

Chapter III - pp. 134 - 150

Those of you who are going to read Between the World and Me, use the spoiler html because this is a single thread discussion.

1. Read message 3 and that message shows you the rules for the buddy read discussion and how to do the spoiler html.

2. Message 4 actually shows you the spoiler html code. Use it on this thread.

3. Where is the Table of Contents and the reading syllabus? - Message 5 and 6.

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Summary and Discussion Questions for Chapter I

(view spoiler)[Coates writes a letter to his son. In this first part he details to his son why he is writing to him. This letter is written soon after the police officers involved in the Michael Brown case in Ferguson, Missouri are exonerated. He discusses racism in America and that it does not value the black body, but is an idea rooted from generations and generations of black enslavement. He worries about his son and his son's future.

He recalls his time growing up in Baltimore, fearful of violence imposed on him. He discusses Malcom X and his messages. He also discusses his time at Howard University.

1. Coates refers to the word “people” as a political term and frequently references white people as those who “believe themselves white.” What can this kind of dissociation from race do as the United States progresses? Moving forward, how can reminding people that race is purely a social construct aid in this fight?

2. What are the different aspects of the American Dream, or “the Dream,” as Coates calls it, that are discussed in this literature? How are they problematic? (hide spoiler)]

I also have a Glossary open with some videos, information from the book. This will be an ongoing thread and is a spoiler thread, with some active/open discussion as well.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Up to page 17

(view spoiler)[
I have read so many books on the "black race" but they were all just stories. This is the first book I have read which actually addresses race itself, why we even use that word and distinction, and where we may be going in the future. This book is so beautifully written! I never considered why we distinguish ourselves into races ... It's just what was done and we grew up this way.

I have always been disturbed by the questions on surveys and forms where we need to choose our race. I will never again fill that section out. We are all people ... That is our "race". When I think of the idea of there not being any race, I think of the song "Imagine" by John Lennon. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all just live together in peace?!

He describes living with a black body so well, I can sense the pain, anguish and fear in a very real way. Of course I always knew it must be there, but never before have I been presented with how it actually feels. I completely understand now how there can be so much violence, and acting out. On page 16-17,, Ta-Nehisi says "All I know is, the violence rose from the fear like smoke from a fire, and I cannot say whether that violence, even administered in fear and love, sounded the alarm or choked us at the exit.". There was so much fear of "...guns, fists, knives, crack, rape, and disease." And they did not feel protected by the law. So acting out in the streets was a way of coping, and a way of trying to gain some sense of control over your own body.

I applaude the writing and publishing of this book, and I wish everyone had the courage and open mindedness to read it! That could very well make a big difference in our world.
(hide spoiler)]

Response to Betty:

(view spoiler)[If you get a chance read Rick Riordan's review of the book here on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It makes some great points and like you, discusses how wonderfully written this book is. Coates is very open and raw and helps the reader to understand life from his vantage point. One of the points made is that white people don't have to think about racism until they're faced with an event that deals with the issue. For blacks, they deal with it everyday. And so they have to cope, to gain control over their own body.

Read on! (hide spoiler)]

I have read other books on race but this is so poignant and inspiring and should be required reading for everyone. It is a great book to read at this troubling time and should bring memories to mind. Thanks for introducing it to HBC.

I agree Helga and I have seen that same sentiment (required reading) from others. I encourage you to watch the video I posted in the Glossary thread of his interview at Howard University.

I'm up to about page 25 and I like what Betty had to say above, and thank you Teri for pointing to Rick Riordan's review, which was excellent. (view spoiler)[This aspect of fear, of protecting the body, stood out to me. Because fear is a part of that thick bubble around whites that Riordan mentions. Coates is talking about the fear that oppresses blacks every day. It's easier to think about the violence in the streets as being something alien that feeds off a different type of culture. But when I think about fear being the driver, I can see it more clearly. I can certainly understand the author's POV on fear. Very compelling reading. (hide spoiler)]

Kristen wrote: "I'm up to about page 25"

Kristen, I'm glad you are joining the conversation. Just a reminder, this is a single threaded discussion so we use the spoiler tags when referencing details/themes of the book. See msgs 3 and 4 above. Could you add the spoiler tags to your comment please? Thank you!

Response to Kristen

(view spoiler)[I liked what Riordan had said about this being a good read for whites as well as blacks. It is a perspective we need to understand. The way the point of view is explained, others can relate. (hide spoiler)]

I've already finished. (It's a pretty short book.) Can I put up my review behind a spoiler link?

Teri wrote: "Kristen wrote: "I'm up to about page 25"

Kristen, I'm glad you are joining the conversation. Just a reminder, this is a single threaded discussion so we use the spoiler tags when referencing detai..."

Done, sorry about that!

Kressel wrote: "I've already finished. (It's a pretty short book.) Can I put up my review behind a spoiler link?"

Yes, Kressel. Just be sure to preface it outside of the spoiler that it is your whole book review. Thank you!

Kristen wrote: "Teri wrote: "Kristen wrote: "I'm up to about page 25"

Kristen, I'm glad you are joining the conversation. Just a reminder, this is a single threaded discussion so we use the spoiler tags when refe..."

No worries. Thank you for doing that.

Here's my book review:

(view spoiler)[
With racial tensions tearing our country apart, and my own interest in being part of the peace effort in my own town, it was inevitable that I’d read this award-winning, best-selling memoir. What brought me to it sooner rather than later was the History Book Club, and I must say, it was an excellent and timely choice, and I can think of no better venue for discussing it. Goodreads is the most scholarly social media site I know of, and though this book is short, it is most definitely scholarly.

The two main themes in the book are “bodies” and “the Dream.” “Bodies” refers to black bodies – bodies that are at risk of police brutality as they once were subject to slave labor. “The Dream” refers to the American Dream, specifically, the belief that America’s democracy puts it on a higher moral plane and that America is a meritocracy in which people who work hard will succeed. Coates is an unabashed atheist, so he doesn’t deal in dreams. He is expressly rejecting the concept of the American Dream, but I wondered if he had Martin Luther King’s dream speech and our president’s Dreams from My Father in mind as well. Instead of dreams, he writes about the most tangible terms possible, hence, his focus on “bodies.”

The one intangible Coates promotes is reading, and that’s something all Goodreaders can appreciate. His quote, “The classroom was a jail of other people’s interests. The library was open, unending, free,” now has 58 “likes” here. Coates says that he began reading and writing beyond the purview of school assignments at a very young age, which set him up to be an independent reader in college and no doubt made up the 10,000 hours toward his becoming the celebrated man of letters he is today. What’s refreshing about this is that he’s not advocating for education as the ticket to the American Dream, but pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. His memoir is a blueprint for becoming an autodidact.

And on that note, I want to conclude with another quote from the book, though the words actually belong to a professor he had. For years, Coates said, he was searching for “the Tolstoy of the Zulus.” After reading plenty of African history and literature, he settled on someone, but later his professor challenged that view by saying, “Tolstoy is the Tolstoy of the Zulus.” In other words, there’s only one Tolstoy, and his message is relevant to anyone who chooses to read him.

Similarly, Oates doesn’t want his memoir to be read as The Statement on the Black Experience. He’s not the only voice out there. In a speech promoting this book to students at Howard University, he urged them to read Toni Morrison and other authors after finishing his memoir. His message was similar to David Shields, a member of my own tribe: “Read memoir to discover how another human solves the problems of being human.”

Thanks for your memoir, Mr. Oates. Now I’ll do as you say and try someone else’s. (hide spoiler)]

Great review Kressel. I like what you say and what Oates says in this memoir.

Thanks!

Very well said, Kressel.

Thank you! So what do you think he means by "the Dream?"

The American Dream

Bear with me as I'm typing this off my phone, so I'll be a bit brief for now.

(view spoiler)[I believe he is talking about his idea of The American Dream, and that is to be in complete control of you body, mind, soul, possessions. To be able to "have it all." And in order to "have it all," you are going to hurt others. To him, that includes destroying and exploiting the black body. Even Blacks who are "living the dream" have exploited and destroyed other blacks along the way, according to Coates. I don't have the book handy to reference that section that he mentions that but I'll find it.

Do you think everybody has the same idea of the American Dream? (hide spoiler)]

I don't know if I need to put my response under a spoiler code, but I'll err on the side of caution.

(view spoiler)[I sure hope you're wrong that success in the American Dream or success in general must necessarily come at someone else's expense. (hide spoiler)]

On another subject, isn't it kind of neat that the group reads we have going on now have such similar titles? One Man Against the World and Between the World and Me. One man was at the top of the world, believed everyone was against him, and destroyed himself. Another argues that the world is against him, yet now he's at the top of his game.

Always best to err on the side of caution.

American Dream

(view spoiler)[No, that is not my idea of the American Dream, but I feel that it is his idea of it. Let's maybe change the verbiage and say that he feels this is the "White Dream". That is his point of view. If I am understanding him correctly, he feels that to attain the White Dream, physical pain and agony is imparted on Blacks - a loss of their physical body. He also believes that Whites are dreamers, with their heads in the clouds, oblivious to the chaos around them, including the violence that Blacks are suffering.

I had asked if you (that's a general question to all) think that everyone has the same idea of the American Dream or just "The Dream"? I don't think so. My dream or idea of the American Dream is not to be on top or at the top of my industry, living a life of luxury, etc. Mine is to simply be happy, healthy, and surrounded by friends and family.

I may be very off on my interpretation, which is why this is such a great discussion book. It is a chance to understand other's views and see things from a different perspective.
(hide spoiler)]

I had not thought about the connection between these two books, Kressel, but you are very right. It is a great comparison. Like you, I had thought about how Coates had risen up and if his ideas on life have changed at all through this process. I don't necessarily expect they have, but am curious.

Actually, one of Coates' oldest friends interviewed him on "This American Life" about the changes to his lifestyle now that he's become so successful:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio...

That was an interesting piece. Thanks for sharing. Would you put it in the Glossary too? Thank you!

Summary and Discussion Questions for Chapter II

(view spoiler)[In Chapter II Coates talks about the death of his friend Prince Jones, reinforcing the idea that black people can easily lose their bodies and their lives. We also see how blacks can hurt other blacks and what he feels is the bias of those in law enforcement. He describes how police can be immune to the justice, invoking abuse and being "untouchable".

He also discusses his life in New York with a wife and his young son. He describes his fears even living in a large city with people from many backgrounds. He travels to Paris with his family and feels alone in a different world. The trip seems to have given him some clarity in life and some joy in being alive.

Questions:

1. Rather than categorizing people as either good or bad in two distinct categories, it is clear that Coates speaks of humans as having pure and dark intentions and actions
simultaneously. It is not the bad white people vs the good black people. That being said, how does Coates speak of humanity and its complexities?

2. Coates refers to the word “people” as a political term and frequently references white people as those who “believe themselves white.” What can this kind of dissociation from race do as the United States progresses?

3. Have you had an experience equivalent to the author’s experience at Howard? What feels like “Mecca” to you? Where do you feel like you’re part of a community? What communities feel like home to you? (hide spoiler)]

I came across this interesting article about Coates and his book.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...

Please read and see the question below:

(view spoiler)[Have you ever heard of the phrase "afro-pessimism?" Thoughts? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I want to address the question of "believing ourselves white." I consider myself Jewish, first and foremost. It's only when I have to fill out certain forms (usually for jobs) that identify myself as "white," and then it may be more of a disadvantage than anything else because of affirmative action. (hide spoiler)]

Kressel wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Good point. I identify the same way.

I don't know why the article link didn't show up last night when I posted it, but it's on there now.

Response to Kressel:

(view spoiler)[Great comment. I agree with you that this can be a disadvantage due to affirmative action these days. I also think that it's becoming harder and harder for Americans to chose a box to check. We have become such a melting pot society with multi-racial ethnicities that you can't put everyone in a "box". (An interesting article on this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09...)

Do you think that we should do away with affirmative action? There are cases (one I know of currently with Texas/UT) of people suing because they were not admitted to schools based on their academic record, but because of their race.

How important do you think racial/cultural identity is today? We've come a long way with civil rights, but we still have a long, long road ahead. Do you think people today are starting to identify with groups/races that are not necessarily what they are by birthright? e.g. Rachel Dolezal.

Along this same line, I was watching the presidential debates (I watch them all, I don't identify with a party), and during the group A Republican debates, one of the candidates was talking about how he would reverse the new law that allows women to serve in all areas of the military (i.e. infantry) and this guy (I've blocked it out, I was in such shock) said he would reverse it because he didn't think that women could do that job and it would be dangerous to allow them to have the opportunity (that was a nutshell version of his comment). I couldn't believe that there are still people that feel that women should stay in traditional "female" jobs, but that seemed the jest of what he was saying.

Good discussion topic, Kressel. Thanks for bringing it up. Why do we not have a box for Jewish? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[If they'd have a box for Jewish, it wouldn't help me. I understand the need for affirmative action, but I also believe that I'm the person who's paid the price for it, right back to when I was pre-school age and was rejected from the program at Hunter College.

Later in the book, Coates says something along the lines of, "They made us a race, but we made ourselves a people." Being Jewish is all about being "a people." But the trouble is, once people identify in groups for positive reasons, there's always someone who's going to cry, "But you're excluding us!" and they aren't entirely wrong. (hide spoiler)]

Response to Kressel

(view spoiler)[ Sorry for just getting back, wrapped up in Holiday stuff. I like that quote, "They made us a race, but we made ourselves a people." That rings true for many who identify themselves in different ways.

You are right, they are not entirely wrong. (hide spoiler)]

Hello everyone. We are about to begin our discussion on the last chapter of the book. It is the shortest, and yet we will take a couple of weeks to discuss it and the book as a whole. This is in part due to the holidays and the brevity of the book. I think this is a great discussion book, that can spark a lot of topics to talk about.

Summary and Discussion Questions for Chapter III

(view spoiler)[The final chapter center's around Coates' visit with Dr. Mable Jones, the mother of Prince Jones. Dr. Jones talks about her love for Prince and how she tried to give him everything she could. She also has regrets. She regrets her son has died.

Coates realizes that nobody can protect or save him. He does not have the capacity to save his family from anyone that is capable of destroying their bodies and lives. He tells his son to never lose the memory of his ancestors, but to try to live a different life.

Discussion Questions:

1. Coates says that he not only cannot tell his son it is going to be okay, he cannot even tell him that it might be okay. “The struggle is really all I have for you,” he tells his son, “because it is the only portion of this world under your control.” That being said, in general, is this text hopeful? Or is it pessimistic? (page 107/Chapter II follow up)

2. What does Coates want us to learn from this text? What should be our primary take-away?

3. Is it insightful/realistic that he does not offer answers to the problems discussed, or is it just bleak and unhelpful?

4. Is his lack of religiosity dangerous/bleak, or is it refreshing for a
generation that is increasingly less theological? (hide spoiler)]

A very interesting Q & A with Ta-Nehisi Coates:

http://www.postbulletin.com/entertain...

To Teri: (view spoiler)[Teri wrote: "You are right, they are not entirely wrong"

At the same time, it's natural for people to surround themselves with people like themselves. That's what "making a people" is all about. (hide spoiler)]

Kressel: (view spoiler)[Kressel wrote: "To Teri: Teri wrote: "You are right, they are not entirely wrong"

At the same time, it's natural for people to surround themselves with people like themselves. That's what "making a people" is all..."

Absolutely agree. And that is what our country has been built on. Meaning...when people immigrated to the US, they often lived in clusters of their "people". There are still areas where Asian, Italian, German, Hispanic, etc. all still live together. We're often not just Americans, but Italian Americans, African Americans, Japanese Americans. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Right. And in my town, two clusters are fighting each other HARD. It's just an awful thing to see. (hide spoiler)]

Kressel:

(view spoiler)[Can't we all just get along? :-) I think race/heritage relations will be a constant struggle, unfortunately. I wish everyone could be proud of our heritage and be a united America working for each other. We've made progress but it's taken so long to do it. And yet, for some areas/people, it seems nothing has changed. And ultimately, that is Coates' hope for his son. Don't forget your ancestors but try to live a better life. (hide spoiler)]

One of the things that's influenced my thinking on this business of dividing ourselves up into ethnic groups is this podcast:

http://www.wnyc.org/story/invisibilia...

I'll have to listen to that this weekend while traveling. Thanks for the link!!