Wholesome History Reads Group discussion

Some cheery scenes and statistics from London, summer of 1675:
"The mass exodus of the capital is one of the most striking moments of the plague in 1665. As the highways out of London ‘thronged’ with passengers, coaches and goods, they left the poorest without food or medicine and at the mercy of fate. As Thomas Vincent put it: ‘the grave is now opening its mouth to receive their bodies, and hell opening its mouth to receive their souls’."
"The weekly Bills of Mortality ratified suspicions. The epidemic had got worse. July had peaked with a total of 2,010 recorded plague deaths in one week, but this escalated to a total of 6,102 recorded plague deaths during the worst week of August...there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to downplay the scale of the epidemic. Towards the end of the month, Pepys was in conversation with the parish clerk of St Olave Hart Street, who revealed that the number of plague dead in his parish was not only increasing, but being consciously underplayed. Pepys records him as saying ‘there died nine this week, though I have returned but six’."
"During the third week of September, the Bills of Mortality shot up to 7,165 in just one week. It was the peak of the epidemic, and of the 130 parishes in London only four remained uninfected."
Seems to be little advance in medical science, or drop in the mortality rates, between 1348 and 1665.

Interesting post Jonny, the book "1666: Plague, War and Hellfire" is an interesting read so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

1666: Plague, War, and Hellfire by Rebecca Rideal

I'm reading something a bit different. On my recent trip away I purchased a nice second hand HB edition of "The Forida of the Inca which was written in the late 1580-1590's and published in the 1600's and has been called "the first great classic of American history."

The Florida of the Inca by Inca Garcilaso de la Vega

That book sounds a bit heavy, AR. Is it a difficult read?

Actually once you get use to the author's style of writing its quite good and very easy to read. Here is an example, in this instance the author talks about an incident in Santiago de Cuba in regards to the native Indians (Don't forget this book was written in the 1580-1590's):

"At this time the island of Santiago de Cuba was prosperous and rich, and there was a large Indian population; but a little later almost all of the Indians hanged themselves."

It seems that they refused to dig up gold, that it was wrong to remove it from the earth, the author again;

"But the Devil incites for his own gain, and he could do as he pleased with people so simple, vicious and slothful as were these Indians. So it came to pass that they took their own lives to avoid mining the gold which is so fine and abundant in that island; and they did so in such a manner and in such haste that in a single town fifty households of Indians, including both women and children, hanged themselves one morning at dawn. Scarcely a living being remained in that town, and it was the most mournful sight in the world to see the bodies of these people suspended from the trees like thrushes when they are snared. The Spaniards tried to prevent the suicides, but their efforts and remedies were insufficient. This abominable calamity was so extensive that the natives of that island and its surroundings practically obliterated themselves, so that today there is hardly an Indian left there. The present high price of Negroes in that place grew out of this tragedy, for it afterward became necessary to import Negroes to all parts of the Indies to labor in the mines."

The writing style doesn't seem as archaic as I imagined it would be based on the time in which the book was written. Do you think there was a lot of modern editing done, which is easier with a translation, to make it an easier read?

I think so Jill, I think a lot of very good work and effort was put into producing a very readable but historically accurate edition by John and Jeanette Varner. This is from the back flap of the cover on my book:

"Garcilaso's Florida is one of the great examples of historical writing in any language. The Varner's translation is uniformly good, at times brilliant. They have put both words and the syntax into modern English without destroying the accuracy of the translation. They have been alive to the little nuances: for example, of the Indian prince occasionally looking down his nose at the Spanish cavalier. And where the narrative needs precise and literal translation, it is there. This is a translation which will stand for our lifetime, possibly for all time." - John Cook Whyllie, curator of Rare Books of the Alderman Library, the University of Washington.

There are pages of introductory notes and footnotes throughout the narrative as well.

Some information on the author of "The Florida of the Inca", Garcilaso de la Vega:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Ga...

http://earlyfloridalit.net/?page_id=89

Some information on the actual book and contents:

http://venicefl.pastperfectonline.com...

I recently finished John Suchet's biography of Beethoven



It's a solid 4 star read. Kind of gossipy and speculative. Suchet makes no attempt to analyze the music. He just accepts that it is some of the greatest ever put on paper.

For any interested, here are my thoughts

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Thanks for the review, happy. The author is certainly correct about the quality of Beethoven's work (he is a close second behind Chopin on my list). I'm surprised he didn't make a choice between his two candidates for the "immortal beloved" letter. I guess it will forever be a mystery.

At least it'll keep it in conversation Jill, as opposed to "Oh it's..." and then that's it

You have a point, Jonny since it is so romantic. Remember that Jack the Ripper was never identified and he is still news!!!!

It has been interesting to read about the style of warfare used by Indians in Florida to combat the Spanish. It seems they learnt not to confront the Spanish in open ground due to horses used by the Spaniards. They learnt to fear these animals after previous contact with the Spanish under Juan Ponce de León and Pánfilo de Narvaez. In open ground they would be run down and put to the lance. They also had to find a way to fight against the Spanish who used dogs to run down any fleeing Indians, seems they used greyhounds for this purpose. Due to the nature of the terrain in this area of Florida the Indians always confronted the Spanish when they attempted to cross rivers or whilst trying to traverse swamps. A lot of the fighting was conducted in water up to their waist, the horses could not manoeuvre effectively and dogs were of no use. Plus the Indians expert use of the bow and arrow made Spanish armour near useless, the penetrating power was enough to go through a horse and they were always the Indians first target, the horses.

Jill wrote: "Thanks for the review, happy. The author is certainly correct about the quality of Beethoven's work (he is a close second behind Chopin on my list).
I'm surprised he didn't make a choice between his two candidates for the "immortal beloved" letter. I guess it will forever be a mystery.
."

Beethoven is my favorite. Our local symphony performed all 9 of his symphonies a couple of yrs ago. Next season they open with his 9th.(I just renewed, and it's on my package) I understand one of their major donors ($million+) stipulated in their gift that the season has to open or close with something by Beethoven.

I was kind of surprised also, esp with the speculation that he was doing on other parts of Beethoven's life. He agrees with you - basically we'll never know, unless their is a diary sitting in someone's attic that nobody has read in 200 yrs :)

Wrapped up
1666: Plague, War, and Hellfire
My usual semi sane thoughts on it are here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Good review Jonny, thanks for sharing your 'semi sane' thoughts with the group, much appreciated :)

I enjoyed a nice weekend down the coast visiting my father, managed to visit a few book shops as well and came home with copies of these two history books:

Let Our Fame Be Great: Journeys Among the Defiant People of the Caucasus by Oliver Bullough

India Conquered: Britain's Raj and the Passions of Empire by Jon Wilson

Those both look good AR

happy wrote: "Those both look good AR"

They do indeed Happy :)

Took a break from military reading to try something different. It proved to me that writing a review of a book in which you can't stand the characters is not easy. It is the history of the rise and fall of the Vanderbilt dynasty and the absolutely idiotic squandering of money just because they had it. Each branch of the family tried to outdo the others and it became a race to see who could have the biggest, the best, and the most. The writing is not bad (the author is the son of the man who built the national treasure, Biltmore House in Asheville, NC.) but the excesses are almost beyond belief. I hate to admit that it kept me interested to a point but I certainly was no fan of the players. Proceed at your own risk!!

Fortune's Children: The Fall of the House of Vanderbilt by Arthur T. Vanderbilt II

You have to wonder what 'money-maker' Cornelius would have thought of all that squandering of his money. Good review.

I'm going to start reading this book later today, it should be good.

Rome: A History in Seven Sackings by Matthew Kneale

I also received this book in the mail this morning, another one I can't wait to open and start reading:


Kingdoms of Faith: A New History of Islamic Spain by Brian A. Catlos

They both look fascinating! Do you order from Amazon or Abe or are there better sites for history books?

Ryann wrote: "They both look fascinating! Do you order from Amazon or Abe or are there better sites for history books?"

Hi Ryann, I use many sites but one that I have found to be the cheapest and with free postage to Australia is Book Depository:

https://www.bookdepository.com/

Nice! I have not heard of this site and look forward to exploring it. The more obscure history books I look for regrettably cost a fortune on Amazon.

Another good site for trying to find decently priced new and second hand books is this one:

https://www.bookfinder.com/

Thank you!

Jill wrote: "Took a break from military reading to try something different. It proved to me that writing a review of a book in which you can't stand the characters is not easy. It is the history of the rise and..."

That mentality was pretty common in the Gilded Age Jill, with the obscene expenditure of money just for the sake of it. I think it comes as no surprise that it was the ones who didn't actually earn the fortune who were the quickest to spend it.

I can think of a few children now who spend money like they earned it. Suspect a mentality not just for the Gilded Age.

For example the 30-year old who has sponged off his parents for seven years, refusing to move out until ordered to by the court. It does seem that some children feel that they are 'owed' an easy life. The Gilded Age was just more ostentatious about it.

From the book; "Rome A History in Seven Sackings", concerning the Colosseum:

"A first visit to the amphitheatre was an important rite of passage. It was also a day out and families would bring elaborate picnics. Finally Romans went to the Colosseum in the hope of making a penny or two. They were addicted to gambling, whether on chariot races, dice or gladiators, and the crowd's exultant shouts of, 'Well washed!' when one gladiator managed a lethal stab against another and blood gushed, was all the louder because they had just won some money. The Colosseum was often almost deserted during public executions because no bets could be made."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/...

The Colosseum still:

"To this day the Colosseum remains the world's most concentrated killing ground, and it is estimated that between a quarter and half a million people had their lives abruptly ended in its arena, along with several million animals large and small, common and rare. Species became extinct in its service. Perhaps its most disturbing legacy, though, is what it says about human nature. Humans, if they are reassured that their behaviour is social acceptable, are quite capable of enjoying the sight of others enduring a gruesome death in front of them, and of enjoying it again and again."

Rome: A History in Seven Sackings by

Hmmm, the Church at it again in regards to pilgrims and money to be made from them:

"In the 370s and '80s AD an energetic bishop of Rome, Damasus remedied the situation by actively seeking out new martyrs. Some, like San Agnese and San Lorenzo, he plucked from obscurity by giving them a church in their name. Others, such as Saint Sebastian, were foreign saints who had died in Rome and who - much to the annoyance of the inhabitants of their home towns - Damasus now claimed for the city. Even then Damasus needed more. He retrieved bones from abandoned catacombs and came up with a new crowd of saints, some of whom were barely remembered, and others who had never even existed. Under Damasus' guardianship they were each provided with a name, a feast day and an account in verse of their grisly death. Their ends were memorably varied from Saint Lawrence, who was grilled to death on a large gridiron, to Saint Sebastian, who was shot full of arrows and, when this failed to kill him, cudgelled to death. By the end of Damasus' reign every road into Rome had a martyr's shrine or catacombs for pilgrims to descend into, and the city was completely encircled by dead Christian heroes, fictional or otherwise."

Wholesome or not AR, after the citation above, I think I can refer to some voluntary cannibalism in my review. Great book, but sometimes you don't know where you are in the story from the familar POV of the West.

The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Good review Dimitri, I quite enjoyed that book, a bit more than you did by the looks of it :)

The Church again obtaining funds by dubious means:

"Julius II's successor, Leo X, who had numerous other expense, from banquets and elephant pageants to predatory wars, began a fund-raising campaign to pay for the building work. In 1517 he sent a monk named Johann Tetzel to tour Germany selling indulgences, which supposedly had the power to release one's dead relatives from purgatory, or reduce the length of one's stay there. Tetzel's salesmanship - he used the memorable catchphrase, 'The moment a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs' - caught the eye of another monk, named Martin Luther, who was so incensed that he wrote a denunciation of Church corruption, the 95 Theses."

Rome: A History in Seven Sackings by Matthew Kneale

From the book; "Rome A History in Seven Sackings". The siege of 1527, in regards to the citizens of Rome being tortured by the Landsknechte to find their valuables after the city fell to the besiegers:

"Guicciardini describes their fate with his usual Schadenfreude:

Many were suspended by their arms for hours at a time; others were led around by ropes tied to their testicles. Many were suspended by one foot above the streets or over water, with the threat that the cord suspending them would be cut. Many were beaten and wounded severely. Many were branded with hot irons in various parts of their bodies. Some endured extreme first; others were prevented from sleeping. A vey cruel and effective torture was to pull out their back teeth. Some were made to eat their own ears, or nose, or testicles roasted; and others were subjected to bizarre and unheard of torments that affect me too strongly even to think of them, let alone describe them in detail."

Those other tortures must have been pretty bad!!!!

http://www.guardiasvizzera.va/content...

I'm reading Andrew Marr's A History of the World but it's not going so well.

In places Marr assumes the reader already has a fair bit of knowledge (whereas I know nothing about ancient India...) rather than being a 'beginner'. Which makes me wonder who this is aimed at - readers who already have a good understanding of history but who still fancy a single volume overview?? Plus Marr's humour, which I've enjoyed in the past, is just annoyingly smug at the moment.

I hate abandoning books... but I'm starting to think about it.

I liked your comments on the book Tony, sorry the book isn't as good as expected.

Sometimes things just don't work out Tony - best just put it on extended pause.

Finally caved and bought myself a copy of
The Edge of the World: How the North Sea Made Us Who We Are

I've started this book which covers a man that appears to have been lost to history for a while:

Bernardo de Gálvez: Spanish Hero of the American Revolution by Gonzalo María Quintero Saravia

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've started this book which covers a man that appears to have been lost to history for a while:

[book:Bernardo de G..."

Looks good. Another TBR. Sigh.

Same! I've saved it too.

I've just started reading; "Scars of Independence" which is a new look at the American War of Independence:

"In Scars of Independence", Hoock writes the violence back into the story of the Revolution. American Patriots persecuted and tortured Loyalists. British troops massacred enemy soldiers and raped colonial women. Prisoners were starved on disease-ridden ships and in subterranean cells. African-Americans fighting for or against independence suffered disproportionately, and Washington’s army waged a genocidal campaign against the Iroquois. In vivid, authoritative prose, Hoock’s new reckoning also examines the moral dilemmas posed by this all-pervasive violence, as the British found themselves torn between unlimited war and restraint toward fellow subjects, while the Patriots documented war crimes in an ingenious effort to unify the fledgling nation.

For example, the practice of tar & feathering those who had a different point of view on politics at that time:

"In addition to Anglican priests, these included the Reverend John Roberts, a dissenting minister of Charleston, South Carolina. After tarring and feathering Roberts, a rebel mob hanged him on a gibbet and subsequently burned his body on a bonfire - a punishment usually reserved for heretics and witches and, in colonial America, slaves."

Scars of Independence: America's Violent Birth by Holger Hoock

Lord George Germain during the Jacobite rebellion, one tough bastard:

"When clansman raided his baggage train in the aftermath of the Battle of Culloden in 1746, he allowed his men to take revenge at the next settlement: the woman were raped in front of their husbands, fathers, and sons. Germain then had the men shot and bayoneted in sight of the already traumatized women."

Lord George Germain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...

Scars of Independence: America's Violent Birth by Holger Hoock

Wow...that is intense. I appreciate your comments. I've been eyeing this book for some time.

Ryann wrote: "Wow...that is intense. I appreciate your comments. I've been eyeing this book for some time."

Its been an interesting read so far, I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Another story from the book; "Scars of Independence". This incident occurred when Lord Dunmore tried to entice slaves to flee their American masters and join British or Loyalist forces down South:

"Among the first slaves who risked running away to Dunmore in 1775 was a fifteen-year-old girl, caught before she reached the governor's base; her punishment consisted of eighty lashes with the whip, 'followed by hot embers poured on her lacerated back,' her treatment clearly intended to intimidate others who might be considering escape."

I liked this story from "Scars of Independence" about George III's equestrian statue in Lower Manhattan that was toppled by Patriots:

"After Patriots and Loyalists had struggled to take custody of parts of the statue, the Patriots transported large chunks of it to Connecticut, where female volunteers converted them into 42,088 bullets of 'melted majesty' ready to be fired at the king's troops."