The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of January 23rd - January 29th , we are reading approximately the next 18 pages of Byzantium by Judith Herrin.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

Week Eight: January 23rd - January 29th::

Part: III: Byzantium Becomes a Medieval State

Chapter 13: Greek Fire 141
Chapter 14: The Byzantine Economy 148

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on December 5th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Judith Herrin

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...


Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Chapter Overviews and Summaries


Chapter Thirteen - Greek Fire

This chapter discusses the secret weapon of Greek Fire.

Chapter Fourteen - The Byzantine Economy

This chapter discussed the Byzantine economy, trade, money, taxes, commerce, etc.

Chapter 14 paints a bright future for Byzantinium.
Yet, there are some conflicts between politics and commerce, which lead to the economic decline described in the closing paragraphs of Chapter 14.
The issuing and use of coinage may have been suspended during the iconoclastic periods of the Empire, because coins have images.
There were restrictions on goods that might aid in military actions against the Empire. (Such debates still occur about selling to certain countries)
On international trade, the author observes: "the upper eschelons of Byzantine society created a paradox: they scorned the very activity on which they depended".
"Instead of investing in economic activity, the Byzantine elite preferred to buy land and invested in administrative positions. IOW, providing goods and services was no longer the preferred use of riches by the elite.
At the same time, trade opened up new portels of education and cooperation with the Islamic world. Western European traders saw Constantinople as the only Christian center for learning.

It appeared to me that the politics and the feelings about trade conflicted with successful commerce.

I was hoping she went into more detail about Greek Fire. I am always interested how secrets or inventions get lost over time, and this was one of them.

Yes, so was I; there was such a build up.

I am amazed by the level of their organization, high esteem of people and culture, and what did really matter to them. First we have learnt that in warring (is that the right word?) they always chose the options with the minimum loss in the cost of human lives, then how cleverly they hid to the others the knowledge of the greek fire, as if they were fully aware how powerful that weapon is (and how destructive it may be in wrong hands!) and at last, how commerce was important, they recognized that, but wasn't so as much as the literature and culture. I am really impressed!

Zeljika, great post and observations.

Thanks -- although they hid the science of the greek fire so well, nobody knows today what it really was (smile).
The only things that saddened me a bit, were the religion matters, actually, the disputes over icons. It seems to me that it was much more of political nature, I mean, of what advantages the choice of one matter brings to the each side. For an example, the empress Irene wasn't against iconoclasm because she so adored icons herself, but more because of the things she would be deprived of, if supported. That's my guess, maybe I misunderstood that chapter.

I think, the sense of superiority of a landed gentry/propertied class and of commercial activity being somewhat "unclean"is not restricted to Byzantium alone; it was also very prevalent in 18th and 19th century british and French society. I think it has to do with the sense of "old money", read any english novel set during this period :)
I loved this chapter and the sense of prosperity she manages to express through the book- such an advanced civilization too, using diplomacy whenever possible....I started reading this book, seeing this thread ( i recently joined good reads) and I've just managed to catch up with the posts. I hope it's ok to join in the middle like this?

No Aparajita it is fine to join in any where as long as you follow the rules and guidelines for the thread (whether it be a non spoiler or a spoiler thread).

But also make sure to go to the introduction thread and introduce yourself. The Assisting Moderators will give you some helpful hints and folks will be able to get to know you and say hello.

Here is that link and glad you liked this chapter and posted.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

And I am delighted that you were able to get the book in Mumbai!

I was thinking the same thing, Aparajita, namely that the Byzantines weren't the only ones where the elite despised those who provided the foundation of their economy.

As others mentioned, I was also disappointed that there wasn't more information about the Greek Fire. It was mentioned so often in previous chapters, and has a whole chapter named after it, I guess I thought there would be more.

It was interesting to me to see more examples of how things aren't that much different today. On page 156 Herrin writes, "It aimed to protect free villagers, who paid their taxes, rather than permit their land to pass into the hands of powerful landowners, who could often resist tax officials or claim exemption from tax." I don't know that any society has come up with a solution to the problem that those who have the most money are often those who are able to avoid taxes.

Later on the same page it says, "Some officials built themselves such tall, grand villas in Constantinople that the city eparch published regulations to prevent them from taking all the light from smaller buildings." My immediate thought was that, again, things are the same today. We have city regulations about the heights of buildings and people complain about the view being disturbed. But then I realized that before Edison, it was more than just an issue of the view. Light! How important natural light was. We are so spoiled today by electricity. :)

Elizabeth S, it may have been one of those things that was very, very great but that most of the salient secret details are not around any longer.

But like yourself, I would have loved to have learned more.

We had the same complaints about the new Trump Tower in NYC not just because of light but because of blocking folks' views.

Some things never change. Thank you Elizabeth S for citing and quoting from the chapter itself. It is very effective and helpful in letting folks know exactly what you are talking about and being able to comment on it.

I found this book in scribd which is a book about the economic aspects of the Byzantine Empire and it is downloadable (free) for those interested in further reading about this topic:

http://www.scribd.com/jorgos/d/783647...

by Angeliki E. Laiou (no photo available)

Bentley wrote: "I found this book in scribd which is a book about the economic aspects of the Byzantine Empire and it is downloadable (free) for those interested in further reading about this topic:

http://www.sc..."

Wow, a whole book covering just one chapter in Byzantium. It really goes to show that Herrin is only giving us the highlights of a lot of subjects.

Yes, for sure and I think she does an exceptional job distilling the subject matter into various samplings so we will take away from this journey the desire to want more or to visit some of these fabulous sites, etc.

Writing sparingly and the distillation of large subjects (in the case of Byzantium - huge) is extremely difficult and she did a very credible job.