User talk:Donald Trung

User 👥	Talk 💬	Chinese cash coins 🀄	French Indo-Chinese banknotes 💴	Chinese charms, amulets, and talismans 🪙	Nguyễn Dynasty documents 📜	Numismatic books 📚	Weird stuff 😵	Articles 📝	Links 🔗

I mostly concern myself with Oriental numismatic affairs.

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This user is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.

• User talk:Donald Trung/1 (one) place for imports.

To import at a later date (Post-Retirement List 📃)

• User:Donald Trung/Stamps of the Qing Dynasty.
• http://www.manchukuostamps.com/index.htm
• User:Donald Trung/Japanese E-sen Illustrated in Kecho Ruishu.
• https://coins.calkinsc.com/hansatsu.html
• https://www.freestampcatalogue.com/stamps/country/french-indochina/sort-by/year/sort-direction/asc

Concept to work on when I have time.

• User:Donald Trung/Wikiscientifica.

Stuff to work on

• "Commons:Quality imports".

• "Commons:Quality imports logo contest".

• "Commons:Quality imports candidates".

Hi

Copied from: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Donald_Trung&oldid=1158552240&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile (More relevant here).

You probably busy right now, but I need your help @Donald Trung. I am giving my arguments and asked why my edits is invalid (I have the sources and the information I added were even in other versions of Wikipedia).

But an Extended User are now in my talk page, talking about what I did wrong with an edit back then and are discrediting me. He said that the admins will even ban my account.

What should I do now?— Daeva Trạc (talk) 07:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The arguments are now in my talk page about this 1 and this 2.- Daeva Trạc (talk) 07:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, I read the top of the discussion. I agree with the other user honestly but I can help you identify better sources if you'd ask me. Please don't add fictional flags to the actual Infoboxes of those articles and if you want to source maps to blogs it would either have to be (1) an expert blog run by an actual historian on the subject or (2) contain a photograph from a museum or a historian's work. I'm traveling now. — Donald Trung (talk) 07:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm in the metro now but maps and flags you add need to be properly sourced, most blogs you cite tend to show these flags in festivals or in historical paintings, these aren't indications of them being either national flags (something Vietnam didn't have until 1886~8) or imperial standards. Vexilogical sources also clearly indicate that no tradition of national flags exists and unlike pre-modern Korea Historians haven't really unraveled many flags for pre-modern Vietnam meaning that many people created fantasies. Wikipedia used to be full of these fantasies and I think that it's good that you put them in a separate list of fantasy flags, however, I don't think that they should be placed anywhere else unless there's information about how they were used and when if they're real. A painting made hundreds of years after the fact isn't a reliable source, I don't think that the pre-Nam Việt used Chinese-style flags.
I'm in the Rotterdam Metro to Madurodam now, so I won't be able to reply until maybe tonight or tomorrow. But I agree with that user and if you're willing I could mentor you in discovering and finding reliable sources. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 07:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, when uploading fake flags to the Wikimedia Commons please only add them to the category for fake flags so they don't pollute the other categories, as people might mistake them for real flags. — Donald Trung (talk) 07:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The arguments aren’t about the flags though. He just uses that (which I agree Im wrong) to discredit my edits. When you aren’t busy, please help me. I don’t even make anything up, I sources my maps, what I have gathered, I have the names from both Wikipedia and nonWiki sources and he still claims my edits were invalid. Most of the maps in Baiyue aren’t even sources and he only targeted me? I hope you have a great vacation, but help me if you can.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 08:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung, the flag have been removed long ago and I haven’t re-edited them, or anything ever since (Im not sure if they have all been removed though). But the arguments aren’t even about that. In the Baiyue article, he deleted the information I took from other versions of Wikipedia, and then deleted the map that I made based on the information I have gathered (I even have sources why there are at least 2 maps in the article don’t. in the Hồng Bàng one, I again, based on a website that have an online version of Lĩnh am chích quái to draw my maps and he again deleted them (like if the sources in maps aren’t valid, what made the article as a whole?)— Daeva Trạc (talk) 07:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, Other Wikipedia's aren't exactly a good source, you should always inspect which sources they use. I often find blatantly wrong information at the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia, I am surprised how often that occurs, even if they cite otherwise reliable sources these sources can often still be blatantly wrong. Only copy from other Wikipedia's if it is reliably sourced. — Donald Trung (talk) 08:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but if Chinese/Japanese wiki and other nonWiki sources (usually in Chinese or Vietnamese) said the same things, I think they would be more reliable. You can see in the Files I put in.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 08:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, You sourced it to Wikipedia's, that's not good, you should source it to the sources used by those Wikipedia's. Please see "Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source". -- — Donald Trung (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I only used Wikipedia as summaries though. Other sources from nonWiki sites and books from different languages have been provided.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 20:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Here are some of my works that he deleted: 12; and here are maps that somehow still being kept: 3,4— Daeva Trạc (talk) 08:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, Ah, I think that I understand it. You see, the 100 Việt tribes of Southern China didn't have clear boundaries, your map uses very clear boundaries but the maps which are kept use vague boundaries. That is because we can't know where the Sơn Việt (山越) ended and the Hồ Việt (虎越) began. Your map makes it seem like there were clear territorial distinctions, but this wasn't really the case almost anywhere in the world until the latter half of the 19th (nineteenth) century. All we know are approximations, so it would probably be better overwrite the map without the clear and distinct colours, as the names are correct but the boundaries are too distinctive. Your map of Xich Quy is almost identical to the map used here. I do want to see a source on both honestly. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I see, it’s true that my maps are too detailed for a blurry situation like these, but I still have the feeling of unfairness. I only question how my sourced files were being removed while the unsourced ones are still being kept. It’s just weird and make me confused about Wiki policies. The map of Xich Quy was drawn based on descriptions which the sources I have already put in there.

For the cờ PQ, I think I have put them as fictional as I only did those for fun (surfing the internet sometimes give you interesting ideas). But this is bot the main story.

The original arguments with the admin was about the credibility of files and namings in Baiyue and Hồng Bàng in which I have provided sources. When being told those were not reliable, I raised questions about how unsourced files are still being kept in which he simply replied bad sources are worst than no sources. I have sources from various websites and also included 3 books in both Vietnamese, Chinese, and English (Linh Nam chich quai and Dai Viet Su ky toan thu). If the information (in Baiyue case: the namings, and in Hong Bang case: the maps) were proved to be existed, why he keeps trying to delete them (names and pictures).

And now look, I am going to get banned because of something I’ve done long ago and have been solved (you can see in my Wikipedia Talkpage).

In conclusion, for the Baiyue, then you probably right, the map is too detailed, but the names I added should still being kept (I have compared with Chinese versions and after doing some results, the names of Yue tribes I added are not fake). Other unsourced files should also be removed or at least, some editors should put the sources in. For the Hong Bang article, I still want to keep the maps as I don’t think there are anything wrong with that.

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 20:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, I don't think that you are going to get banned over this, you are willing to learn and willing to stand corrected, you did not engage in edit warring, and you are now discussing it with people. Ah, I just saw the ANI thread, not much engagement besides the person who originally listed it. I would advise against using "copying from another Wikipedia" as a defense as I noted before that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source.
Also, thank you for making the "Kingdom of Luang Prabang (Japanese puppet state)" article, it's clearly a notable subject and I don't see why they feel the need to attack it. — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, And yes, those books you used as sources are reliable, you are correct about there being a double standard but they will usually cite "Other stuff exists" as an invalid argument, most Wikipedia discussions have double Standards, you just have to make sure that your content is properly sourced. I'm not saying that these double standards are justified, I'm just saying that bringing them up isn't seen as "a valid defense" in WikiCourt. — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Donald Trung, Im also pretty confused because they use the first edit version during the making process of the article to attack to me. For me, this user arguments seem very different from any other extended users I met (normally, they would provide more reliable sources to tell me why they removes something, or even help improve the files more), he seems to stay off the subjects too much. Anyway, I hope things will be settled. It’s weird to see Wikipedia keep the unsourced files or deleted anything even though they have been sourced (and even existed in other versions of Wikipedia).

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Daeva Trạc, Also, where did you source the Cờ Phú Quốc from? If it has no historical evidence it is best to only categorise it as either fictional or proposed. — Donald Trung (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I just realised that most of this concerns the Wikimedia Commons and not Wikipedia per se as it all concerns files there. As it's easier to link to files there and policies there I'll continue this discussion at the Wikimedia Commons. Please message me there. — Donald Trung (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

• @Daeva Trạc: , the conversation can better be held here as it concerns images you uploaded here. Plus I hate my signature there and prefer not to look at it too much. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
  • @Daeva Trạc: , Also, that user is not an admin. They just brought it up at the administrators' noticeboard but I think that you're a clear case of a user who's willing to learn and has improved his sourcing over the time that you've been contributing here. I think that it's highly unlikely that you'll be banned 🚫, otherwise there would be really unjust with the WikiJustice system. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 21:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
    • I also never said that the names were fake, the 100 (Bạch) Việt names are well-established, the boundaries simply aren't. You could re-do it as a better map simply by translating a Chinese map of the 100 (Bạch) Việt. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 21:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
      • Looking up the tribes I saw this edit, not a wise decision to use these fictional flags. This flag is attributed to a Ðông Hồ painting, the oldest Ðông Hồ painting found is from the 11th (eleventh) century, that is a full millenium after the fact. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 21:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)