User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 9

objectivity

I think it's a noble goal to raise the standard from "verifiability" to "objectivity". But isn't objectivity just another word for truth? And on Wikipedia, we don't base anything on a standard of truth. There's a good reason for that. Truth tends to be my word against yours. "I know I don't have a verifiable reliable source that will say what I'm saying is true. But I'm right and you're wrong, because the truth is on my side." Now replace "the truth" with "objectivity".

Not only do I think the standard is unworkable. But I also think it tends to undermine the legitimacy of the guideline. People say "there's no way this is objective. It's a standard invented by a group of editors, and why do they get to make up their own standard?" But if we say "you have to verify that something is important," you quickly realize we're not just making up the standard. We're working with a fundamental tenet of Wikipedia: if you're going to claim something, you have to verify it in a source that has the legitimacy to back it up. Randomran (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

In the context of WP:N, objective evidence of notablity is given by reliable secondary sources. It is objective evidence, in the sense that you or I can see those sources being cited in the article; the evidence is real, can be counted, read and commented on and its existence is independent of your or my opinion. Perhaps I can ask another editor to explain if I have not convinced you? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 17:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

To me, you just described verifiability. Evidence given by reliable secondary sources, which other editors can see, count, read, and comment upon, which is independent of either of our opinions. What's the difference between what you just said and verifiability? Randomran (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, I suspect that they are different, but I am stumped to say how and not even sure why. I have asked Slrubenstein, as he seems to have a tighter grip on these concepts. My view is that notability is itself a subjective concept, but once you accept it, it can be proven to exist through objective evidence that is independent of a Wikipedian's opinion. It can't be evidenced by citing another person's opinion if it is published in a reliable source (e.g. notability is claimed with reference to someone's POV -see my example above), but if that person has commented on a particular topic in a reliable source , that is objective evidence of notability. Either I am not explaining myself well, or it down to the fact I don't understand what I am talking about. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 19:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The best way I can put it is that notability is the verification of a subject's importance. It's not a subjective standard invented to keep stuff out. It's literally the only way we measure anything on Wikipedia. Because we don't have any way to quantify objectivity or truth, the next best thing is reliable sources. Randomran (talk) 22:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, all I can do is give my opinion - I am doing it here because i do not see a thread at the policy talk page. But I would get rid of the word "objective." I think the word "objective" usually has two meanings. One is metaphysical, that something has a being or truth independent of human existence - and I think this is the kind of "truth claim" our verifiability is all about NOT being. Objective has another, normative meaning: everyone agrees that this is so. But here we walk a fine edge, not just because people can mix up the metaphysical and normative meanings, but because NPOV is meant to serve multiple even opposing points of view. I think that we are better off ditching the word, it can only cause confusion. I do hink that there is a point underneath or behind the word and it is a point worth explaining using several words rather than searching for just one. The point is this: when something is notable, even people who do not agree with the view (people who are partial and opposing) acknowledge it is notable, and people who take no view at all (people who are impartial) consider it notable. What do I mean? Let's look at the Jewish-Palestinian conflict. Zionists often quote the Palestinian Convention as a source. I do not think any Paklestinian would claim it is non-notable, although they may accuse Zionists of misinterpreting it. Anyway, my point is, here is a document that both sides of a dispute refer to. That is one way of proving it is notable. If people who oppose a point of view cite something from the opposing view, I think we can agree it is notable. As for impartial people, well, one example is librarians of major universities or public libraries. With limited budgets, they cannot afford to subscribe to every academic journal. I do not think librarins are partial to one discipline or another, or to one view; they just seek the most widely read or widely cited journals i.e. they have their own criteria. If most major academic libraries subscribe to a journal or newspaper, i would say it is a notable source. So I have come up with two criterial for notability that I think are different from verrifiability, but also I have avoided the word "objective," and i think these are reasonable criteria for "notability" most people would agree with. I would rather see our policy spell this out that use the word "objective." Feel free to move this comment to the policy talk page if you wish to pursue a discussion there! Best, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The thread I have in my sights is WT:N#First draft of WP:NOTINHERITED. I think what Slrubenstein is saying is that objectivity and verfiability may be related, but it is probably better to use on term rather than the other, as objectivity can mean different things, depending on the context. I have happy to drop the term "objective" and go for the ther "verifiable" instead. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 19:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Gavin.collins. You have new messages at Drilnoth's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

–Drilnoth (T • C • L) 22:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Ping. :) –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 22:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Something I'm working on

I've been working on trying to create a unified guideline for what fiction articles are - something that's more fundamental than WAF (which is just a MoS for fiction), and instead deals with the basic problem of what it means to cover things that are not real in an encyclopedia, and what fundamental issues that involves. My hope is that by clarifying that, dealing with the notability issue becomes easier. I've got a draft at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction. I'd welcome any comments. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I will comment on the discussion page. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 07:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fiction

The only edit history for Wikipedia:Fiction is a redirect to the Notability/Fiction page. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the history because I was moving a page to its location, and moving a page over a redirect requires history deletion. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Insulting and condescending.

To imply that I don't really have any right to edit WP:FICT because I don't use the talk page is incredibly arrogant, rude, and insulting. I've been participating in the discussion for over a year and have had numerous interactions with you, in fact. Your message to me is a fucking farce. ThuranX (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I gather from your uncivil language that you are somehow annoyed at my message, but why you are annoyed and why you are choosing to use intemperate language is a bit of mystery. Since I did not imply in any way that you don't really have any right to edit WP:FICT, but in fact asked you to make your own contribution rather than revert mine[1], I fail to see how you could take offence. On the contrary, I am rather hoping that you will comment on my proposal which is why I created the discussion specifically for this purpose, and with you in mind. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Enron

Hi, about your note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Business/Accountancy task force#Enron, I'm interested in collaborating. I've heard an accounting professor/author give a very clear explanation of the Enron scandal as basically being about management toying with the basic entity concept of accounting. Perhaps using that would help clarify matters for readers in a good way. Basically, the accountants screwed up by accepting managements' preference for what entity level should be the subject of their audits. It shoulda been a bigger entity than the formal Enron company, and should have included in all the separate-only-on-paper related entities. Also, I am familiar with SSRN and believe the working papers there are pretty reliable, can be used with care. I'm not sure what "section on the Enron scandal" you are referring to, separate from the Enron scandal article. If you want, perhaps you could start a sandbox version of one of them to work on, with a Talk page for us to discuss the SSRN articles and other sources. Let me know. doncram (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you been able to download the article from SSRN? If so let us discuss what is relevant to the article at Talk:Enron scandal#The Fall of Enron and see if we can work towards your interest in the entity concept. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 15:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Well...

This probably goes on the list of things I never thought I'd type but:

"Gavin, thanks for making that policy edit." :-)

Hobit (talk) 00:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)