User talk:Wesley Wolf

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank you for fixing up that language debacle. We could have been here until 26 May if you didn't step in! Spa-Franks (talk) 10:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Thank you for your hard work on fixing the languages issue across many different Eurovision Song Contest articles. CT Cooper · talk 11:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Sluuuuurrrrp! Ahhhhhh! Thank you for the coffee, it came at a perfect time, and its black coffee too which has certainly woken me up. I soon hit the pillow with tiredness after doing all those changes. Wesley☀Mouse 12:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Alteration of Finnish Television details on various Eurovision articles

Hi Wesley I receved the infomation of the YLE broadcast of the Eurovision from a Finnish ESC fan, who gave me which years TV1 and TV2 took turns in broadcasting the contest. I could give you his contact, if you wish to double check.

Regards Mrluke485 (talk) 17:11,(UTC)

Unfortunately that is going against no original research, as the information has been sent privately to yourself from a fan, and not from a reliable source. Therefore the information cannot be used, sorry! Wesley☀Mouse 17:14, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay I see your point, is there anyway I could get the infomation reliable if possible please?

Regards - Mrluke485 (talk) 17:20,(UTC)

You could always check other reliable websites such as the national broadcaster itself, or Eurovision.tv. There is a list of reliable sources at the WP:ESC page. Wesley☀Mouse 17:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

If I put the source as Ojala, Ilari (OGAE Finland), would that be a reliable source? Ilari Ojala is the contact name where I recieved the infomation from

Regards - Mrluke485 (talk) 17:38,(UTC)

Sorry no, that cannot be done. You obtained the information privately from that person, so to cite their name would still be classified as original research, as you already admitted to obtaining it originally from them. Wesley☀Mouse 17:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: Engelbert Humperdinck for UK

I didn't add it, but have edited it, there is still bound to be some similarities. -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 22:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Its OK, I've managed to re-write it better, avoiding copyvio - Wesley☀Mouse 22:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

'staged'* :D -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 22:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Well spotted - the shock of the Humpmeister is just unbelievable that I can't focus on what I'm typing LOL Wesley☀Mouse 22:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I was too young (in other words, yet born) to remember his heyday, but It'll be different, would be nice to hear the song. -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 22:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: nominations of various Eurovision Representatives Templates

Why did you remove all the templates I have made?? A. There is NO such templates, I made a template for ARTISTS and you mentioned the template for YEARS, I know it is very usefull because not everyone want information about years. B. There are not templates connected to artists, you can check every artist and see that after what you have done you can't go through sevral artists from the same country. C. Most important - besides adding templates I made changes because there are couple of formats for the bottom list of the artist before and after, so I wanted to go over all the artists to have the SAME format, why ruin that? Please fix this issue, I can't find any reason why not let me do job, and as I said, I wanted to do it for ALL the Eurovision artists (Hundreds of them!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123o (talk • contribs) 22:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As discussed with another editor (which can be seen here) we need to keep the number of template navboxes to a minimal as possible. The mass creation of such templates like the ones you created without consensus is problematic, and you should have checked with the project first before going on your own back and making them. 9 times out of 10, you'll find there are templates already in existence which cover what you expected. Currently your created templates overlap with "Country in the Eurovision Song Contest", and really either these new templates should list purely the contestants for each country (in perhaps the same style as Template:Venues of the Eurovision Song Contest). Wesley☀Mouse 22:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So why didn't you remove the previous templates? There is fewer information in those one (there is NO information on the artists!), and again as I said, I made several changes besides this one and you removed them also...--123o (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The other templates have been created a long time before your by another editor. To delete theirs and allow yours to take presidency is highly wrong, and not cooperative in any form whatsoever. You should have sought consensus from the project talk page before going ahead and creating templates that are no required. If duplication or overlapping articles ever occur, then any editor would take into account the one made first, and the duplication would get deleted. There are templates for artists, templates for years, templates for host cities - so why create one covering all of them, it is pointless - and they will look very messy as more and more details become added to them. Plus you overkilled the templates by adding too many pictorial items to them. As the saying goes, "Less is more". Wesley☀Mouse 23:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems you don't read what I write, because you keep writing the same things without referring to what I write, but I would like to get an example for a Eurovision Artists template you say is on place--123o (talk) 00:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Please don't be rude and presume that I am not "reading what you write". I have read clearly and understandably what you have written, and replied politely as can be. Maybe you're misunderstanding what I have tried to politely point out? Anyhow, in response to your request, I provided examples of templates currently in use, as well as provide an example with "Country in Eurovision Song Contest". All you need to do is change the word "Country" for the name of the nation you wish to view. That will direct you to an article for that nation, which contains full details of participation, artists, and points awarded/gained. For example, you created Template:Armenian Eurovision Representatives. An article for Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest and a template Template:Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest already exists which provides the same information as your template. However, you are failing to see that the other articles and templates have been created long before yours, and have had many hours/days/weeks/months/years work put into them by other editors who have taken time to create and maintain them - deleting their work so that yours can remain is an insult to the other people. Wesley☀Mouse 00:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It may also be worth noting the following pages too, which cover exactly what your templates are doing Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by year and Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country. Wesley☀Mouse 02:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As I thought, you gave an example for something completely different (And as I said, if you would read what I have written you would understand...). Take care. --123o (talk) 14:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Please avoid being uncivil. I have asked politely that you cease the rude statements aimed at me. Your behaviour towards myself is becoming disruptive and unacceptable. I have read everything you have written - if I hadn't read them, then I wouldn't have replied would I? You asked for examples everytime, and each time I have provided examples. Perhaps you are failing to read what I have provided? As CT Cooper mentioned on his own talk page, he spent all summer fixing templates so that they are easy to use, and worded appropriately. To delete his hours and hours of work would be wrong. Take for example if it was your work that had been around for a long time, and someone else came along demanding their newest version take priority - you would get very upset. So to be fair, I shall explain things one final time, in more simple terminology. I shall use Albania as the example.

• Original Article: Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest - Created 6 June 2005
  • This provides insight into representatives for Albania by year.
• Original Template: Template:Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest - Created 27 July 2008
  • This provide shortcut links to Albania by year
• Your creation: Template:Albanian Eurovision Representatives - Created 3 March 2012
  • This is covering all of the originals, which would effectively make the article obsolete; and an adverse effect of having your own created template redundant as there would be no article for it to be used on.

Wesley☀Mouse 14:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe this argument should not be based on a personal level, but I would like to say that a dialogue is usually based on hearing the two sides and not just one side giving his arguments without referring to the opinion of the other (a good example is what CT Cooper (talk · contribs) wrote in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision page, referring to my notes). I suggest we conclude this discussion here and let the editors give their professional opinions from now on. --123o (talk) 03:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

My change

I'm sorry about my change, I didn't mean anything by it. I just noticed that Diggiloo Thrush has the extra lyrics for Norway 1973 down as "Serbo-Croat". In my mind I was doing what we had agreed upon, but if you wanna change it back then I understand. It is your work like, shouldn't have stepped on your toes. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 23:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed those too. But Bosnian was already included in the original article. What I found untidy was the language column for Norway was listing 10 different languages, so I left the ones that Diggiloo quoted, and moved the rest to a footnote; just for the fact that a previous consensus could have been reached to list it as Bosnian, that we're not aware of. Wesley☀Mouse 23:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Right I agree that 10 languages in the column wouldn't work at all, but I didn't see Bosnian listed before your changes were made. Sorry again. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 23:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

They where hidden within a <ref>...</ref> - very sneaky I thought, but the ref listed the other 10 languages at the reflist section. Wesley☀Mouse 00:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah okay, fair enough then. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've just thought Sims. All these changes now could affect List of languages in the Eurovision Song Contest. Would you like to alter the table in there to reflect what is held on all the articles? Keeps things tied-together and looking consistent. Wesley☀Mouse 00:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Well it should be all okay since it's basically already what we're putting in now, but I'll have a look. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Well not really. I've have literally gone off what Diggiloo have languages listed as. So Serbo-Croatian may now have been first used later than listed. Seeing as the compromise was to list exactly how they have them listed, with exception to dialects, which get footnoted. Wesley☀Mouse 00:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so in each year's article take the first occurence of each language used and place it in the table. Simple enough Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sounds about right yeah. I'll even go shares with you on a barnstar :-) Wesley☀Mouse 00:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

How can I say no to that?! :D Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I've made it to the year 2000 - watch out Doctor Who, I can travel faster than you LOL Wesley☀Mouse 00:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Haha. Quick question, should I list "Serbo-Croatian" from 1984 as seperate from Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. Before all this the three languages were already listed as seperate entries from 1961, 1963 and 1964 respectively, which is what we have right now, but there was a footnote explaining the whole Serbo-Croatian thing and how the first entries for each of the three languages could be their first independent entries. My opinion would be to just leave it as it is, since it seems to have worked in the past without any difficulties. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm good question. Keeping it as it is would take away consistency and may confuse readers - especially when the 1984 article states first use, and the list contradicts with by saying 1961. Saying that, we are now going off Diggiloo's facts - so I doubt anyone would argue too much about it if we did change things, when we've sourced the facts now. I'm in the year 2004 - yikes! Wesley☀Mouse 00:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It would shorten the table length down too, going off the new diggiloo list. Wesley☀Mouse 00:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, are we listing Styrian as a language, or a dialect? Diggiloo have it as language, but we did establish it as dialect. Wesley☀Mouse 01:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

My thought would be that it'd be a dialect of Bavarian, so the way you're doing it is probably right. Guess that would mean I would take it off the first languages page since it's now not a language! Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I checked the lyrics article itself on Diggiloo, and they have it as Styrian (a dialect of German); similar to the way they have 2012 listed. Also, the list of languages article, I'm dubious about the footnote for Yugoslav songs. It uses the phrase "strictly speaking"... which is something a person would say to stress a point of view, and we're suppose to be WP:NPOV. We could always list Yugoslavia's first usage of Serbian/Bosnian/Slovene/Croatian etc and then also list the first time Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia, used them in their own right as independent nations; and footnoting all, and rewording the explanation. Wesley☀Mouse 01:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Slovene is a different situation, as it has always been seperate from Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian and there are key differences between their languages, in a similar way as Swedish/Norwegian/Danish are different from each other. I'm not sure how I feel about listing the same languages twice, since it is suppose to be "first languages", but I'll have a go at rewording the footnote. I have also taken Styrian and Mühlviertlerisch out of the list and added them to a footnote for German. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've had a go at rewording the Yugoslav footnote. Tell me what you think. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Will do. I'm almost done myself. Taking a stroll into 2011, and then wham bam into 2012, and job done! Wesley☀Mouse 01:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That looks good - well done! Although the Austrian footnote appears to be tagged to Switzerland. I've managed to travel through 57 years of Eurovision - phew! Wesley☀Mouse 01:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's tagged to the German language and it just happens that the first entry sung in German was by Switzerland. Can't help that I'm afraid. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Problem solved - tagged it (twice) next to the name Austria, in the countries column instead- less confusing now. Wesley☀Mouse 01:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Suppose that's as good a solution as any. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Wesley Wolf. You have new messages at Sims2aholic8's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	I award you this Teamwork Barnstar for your help in bringing an end to the huge and very long "Austrian Language Debacle" (since that's what we're calling it now). Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Ooooo that one is more colourful than the one I issued. Where did you find the jazzed-up version? Thank you BTW, I shall add it to my wall of fame. Wesley☀Mouse 02:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's the one that came with the barnstar when I used the "thank user" button at the top of the page :P Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 02:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've always wondered what that heart thing did - wasn't brave enough to click it myself in case I broke something - very accident prone me! Wesley☀Mouse 03:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)