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WP:ARC

Requests for arbitration

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Medical pricing		31 March 2020	0/0/0

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Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Historical elections	13 Sep 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)	Motion	(orig. case)	26 July 2024
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)	Motion	(orig. case)	17 August 2024
Clarification request: Conduct in deletion-related editing	none	(orig. case)	8 September 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Medical pricing

Initiated by Barkeep49 (talk) at 03:31, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
Colin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Doc James (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Seraphimblade (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Barkeep49

This is a dispute over what kind of information about pricing of drugs and medicines belongs in articles that goes back years. The community made an admirable attempt to solve this dispute at the most recent ANI thread which I closed and then attempted to implement as an uninvolved administrator. This lead to an RfC which was recently closed. However, the RfC, despite finding consensus in some areas has not stopped the conflict as shown at Simvastatin and Ethosuximide. While at the core a content dispute and a dispute about our policies, there is enough disruptive behavior that an ArbCom case could lead to a structure or remedies to allow the disruptive behavior to end and our dispute resolution mechanism, which have been tried to their fullest, to stick. I have named the maximum number participants in this discussion/dispute that the template allows but there are several others who could be included and I have simply included those as parties who seem most involved (with a slight bias towards administrators) and I believe some of the listed parties have committed no behavioral issues while a couple of unlisted parties have exhibited behavior that could be sanctioned. 3:31, March 30, 2020‎ (UTC)

Newyorkbrad if the discussion were merely happening at the Medicine WikiProject trying to sort everything out, even if that got a bit contentious, I would say of course not. However, Simvastatin's article history points to edit warring involving a quite a few editors. And then at a different article the response to an edit being challenged was to immediately open another RfC seemingly re-litigating elements of the last RfC. I don't know if this was the right time. I wish these editors were focused on pandemic related content. But that wish is't the reality I'm seeing and I do not have hope that another RfC, narrower in scope than the last one and thus not likely to do more than achieve consensus at a particular article, is going to be effective dispute resolution for a conflict which is hundreds of articles in scope and has active edit warring among a non-limited set of editors. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: Obviously you can't and shouldn't solve the areas the community left to no consensus. However, the RfC decided a fair bit more than just whether it should be in the lead. It's evidence of edit warring over those elements, and the immediate rush to a new RfC which I see not as a dispute resolution mechanism but to "win" their way, that suggests to me that the past behavior which I believe to fall short of community expectations is going to continue. Even in the midst of a global pandemic when I would think editors in this topic might have better things to do. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Colin

Statement by Doc James

Thanks User:Barkeep49 for opening this. While the prior RfC came to a conclusion against including numerical prices in the lead. The conclusion was not for removal of all pricing information generally (despite this some appear to interpret the conclusion that way). Additionally it does not come to a conclusion around using none numerical expressions of cost in the lead. Hopefully the current RfCs will clarify some of that.

With respect to behavioral issues, they stretch much farther back than this issue as discussed at the ANI in Dec of 2019 with respect to Colin. Unfortunately the behavioral issues were refactored as a content issue. An atmosphere has been created over the last number of months / years at WPMED that makes many editors hesitant to engage in discussions as they are concerned that the great attention Colin directs towards me while be turned their direction.

On Dec 2nd I requested that Colin stop pinging me.(Dec 2nd at 19:04) I had previously requested, a number of years back that they not post on my talk page, which they also did not follow. Colin replied to this request “James As long as you won't drop this issue, you'll get pinged whenever I mention your name.” and he not only pinged me in the reply but continued pinging.[1]

After being brought to ANI and being threatened with a block they backed down. SandyGeorgia was the first one to respond and did not appear to have any concerns with this behavior. She has continued on the pinging tradition with 6 pings today, all to bring my attention to a single discussion I was obviously watching.[2][3][4][5][6][7] Sandy has criticized me multiple times for requesting unwanted pings stop, today stating "you disallowed pings and were not keeping up with discussion".

When the harassment team initial stated they were developing a tool to silence unwanted pings, I initially did not think such as thing was needed as I assumed all one would ever have to do was politely ask. I have now changed my position on this and fully support the development of such a tool.

@User:Newyorkbrad agree not the best timing for some of us. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC) @Agree with User:DGG. We are also having a disagreement over what language such as "little" means with some claiming a multiple page discussion of prices is still "little". Some are attempting to apply to this topic area "rules" we would never apply to anything else just because some editors do not like this content.[reply]

Other issues include... Some disagree with the position of many of us to write for a general audience. Some disagree with ongoing work to collaborate between languages. Some disagree with attempts to innovate around the types of content we provide. And some disagree with my involvement generally. If we decide to address this after the current pandemic that is not unreasonable but I imagine we will be back to address the ongoing behavioral problems. The speed at which, by who, and with the degree of pointedness that the RfC conclusions were raised at WT:MED makes that clear. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:52, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by QuackGuru

Statement by SandyGeorgia

Go forward, with flexibility for COVID-related issues. James has time. The drug pricing dispute is merely the latest symptom of entrenched OWNERSHIP affecting WPMED, with behavior furthered by enablers. The case name is inadequate.

Granting exceptional leeway to one editor will further the long-standing ailment. Dozens of editors spent months formulating an RFC. Deferring on timing or scope of case to an editor who scarcely engaged-- although virtually all of the disputed content was added by him alone-- will not address the recurring behavioral issues, proliferating across all medical editing, and causing several experienced editors to stop editing. I advocated a methodical approach to implementation of an RFC that gave a usable result;[8] James disregarded the community-wide RFC and immediately resumed IDHT/ownership behaviors,[9] launching two more RFCs of his own within days (recurring IDHT behavior).

Arb guidance on scope of the case is needed; there are considerable issues and involved editors. Measures to address this one aspect of a larger problem have proven unsuccessful-- alarmingly and quickly so. I will add parties and descriptions upon arb feedback re scope. Considering the number of parties, word limits will be an issue.

Statement by Seraphimblade

A lengthy RfC was just concluded a couple of days ago. However, its effects are substantial and apparently still in some cases unclear, so that is still being sorted. Since that is at heart a content matter, I do not see how arbitration will be anything but an impediment to that process. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:33, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WhatamIdoing

Statement by Levivich

When a "coronavirus drug" is made, it will be sold around the world at different prices, and the disruption around pharmaceutical pricing will visit articles that have 1,000+ editors. It would be good to get ahead of it. A motion in lieu of a full case would reduce the demand on editor time. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 05:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad: I would ask the editors and admin who are more heavily involved than I about specific remedies, but options that come to mind are a sourcing restriction (perhaps enforcing the recent RFC result through a sourcing restriction, or passing a broader or narrower sourcing restriction), authorizing DS or other editing restrictions like 1RR, consensus required, or enforced BRD. Possibly suggesting another RFC. Possibly tbanning or otherwise sanctioning editors if there is clear evidence supporting it that wouldn't require a full case to analyze (I'm not sure if this is the case). Currently the community doesn't seem to have the tools available to it, or a process available to it, to resolve content disputes about drug pricing. Edit warring is obviously not the answer, but RFCs don't appear to be resolving the disruption either. For example, does disputed price content stay in or out of the article while an RFC runs? (In per WP:SILENCE, or out per WP:ONUS, or second mover advantage per WP:BRD?) We have no answer to this, hence the edit warring at the articles mentioned in the report. Arbcom can't decide the content dispute but it might be able to quickly lay down some ground rules for this area of conflict. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:45, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, regarding "we don't having time for this because of COVID-19", given the edit warring and talk page walls of text surrounding pricing disputes just in the last week, it's obvious that editors do have the time for this, or that it's already distracting from COVID-19 editing. Resolving this will free up editor time, not waste it. It will also free up admin time so they can focus on mopping up at COVID-19 articles instead of mopping up pricing disputes. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

Just a note that QuackGuru is listed as a party to this case but they are currently in the middle of a 3-month arbitration enforcement block (expires 19 May) and so will not be able to participate in this request. The AE block was related to conduct in the e-cigs topic area [10] and does not at first glance appear to be related to this dispute. Thryduulf (talk) 14:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by bluerasberry

I would like to request delay on this topic until further notice due to COVID-19. This issue concerns WikiProject Medicine and the focus of that project right now is COVID-19. The primary outcome of this issue being discussed anywhere will be distraction from developing COVID-19 content. The matter of price is not urgent and has been pending for years. No harm comes from postponement. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Natureium

My assumption when I first saw this was that there would be calls for delaying due to coronavirus efforts involving WPMED. However, if there's time to edit war on the involved (non-COVID related) articles, surely there's time for this. Natureium (talk) 15:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hipal/Ronz

I'm stunned by the behavior I've been seeing related to pricing across Wikipedia in order to support some sort of broad exception to content policies. It needs to stop, but it appears ArbCom is the only way it's going to.[11] --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: I believe editors are ignoring and misrepresenting the results of the RfC (even in this Case page) in order to continue to push article content against consensus and policy, including pricing content in the lede of articles. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JzG

This dispute involves experienced and highly valued contributors who have a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes encyclopaedic coverage of a significant but specific (and geographically variable) facet of content.

What it needs is for someone to definitively rule one way or the other. If the RfC is taken as being that determination then I guess we can move to enforcement but I suspect what will actually happen is that the the same parties will try to litigate the content issue through Arbitration. I think the claim of COVID-19 as a reason to delay is spurious (though at least one party is an ER doctor), the parties appear still to have plenty of time for edit warring.

Kudos to Barkeep for trying to fix this festering sore. Guy (help!) 17:52, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I fear that I will regret making this statement. I've been trying to retire from Wikipedia because of my unhappiness over this very issue, and I would likely not say anything here had I not just made a few Workshop comments in another unrelated case. To my recollection, I've never done any editing about prices on med pages. But I had commented at the ANI discussion that Barkeep links to in his statement, and having done that, I tried to help design the RfC that is also linked to above. And what happened there made me decide that it would be in everyone's best interests for me to separate myself from Wikipedia, and that's what I really want to do. You should decline this case request. You should also expect that a case will in fact be needed a few months from now. The problem is that the community decided at ANI that there should be an RfC that would settle the question of whether or not to have prices on med pages – but the RfC that resulted ended in "no consensus" about the central question. So here you have some editors interpreting the RfC results to mean one thing, and other editors interpreting it to mean the opposite. Before you will be able to evaluate any conduct issues, the community will need to figure out the content issue. (Otherwise, what Guy predicts just above, with parties trying to litigate content through the case, is exactly what will happen.) ArbCom clearly cannot parse "no consensus" into a consensus. So the community needs to try again, to get a consensus where a consensus did not emerge so far. It's very possible to do that, but it will require an RfC that is designed to do so (and please leave me out of it). There will be three possible outcomes: (1) the community will find a consensus that is generally agreed upon, and the dispute will resolve itself, (2) there will be a consensus, but some editors refuse to abide by it, in which case ArbCom will need to act, or (3) editors will not cooperate in creating the RfC, and ArbCom will need to act on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Medical pricing: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Medical pricing: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

Before reaching the substance of the request, is this the best timing given the obvious other issues currently preoccupying editors of medical articles? Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Levivich: A motion saying what? Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:12, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to confirm that I understand the question at issue: the RfC seems to have settled that prices were not to be included in the lede nor, usually, in the infobox. It left unresolved the question of whether they should be covered in the article, or to what extent. The recent disputes have been over that issue. Are we being asked to resolve that?--because I cannot see how that's within our scope. DGG ( talk ) 18:24, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I would also like it to be made clearer exactly what we are being asked to decide, we certainly aren't going to start meddling with content. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 95: / Line 95: @@
 Kudos to Barkeep for trying to fix this festering sore. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 17:52, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
+=== Statement by Tryptofish ===
+I fear that I will regret making this statement. I've been trying to retire from Wikipedia ''because of'' my unhappiness over this very issue, and I would likely not say anything here had I not just made a few Workshop comments in another unrelated case. To my recollection, I've never done any editing about prices on med pages. But I had commented at the ANI discussion that Barkeep links to in his statement, and having done that, I tried to help design the RfC that is also linked to above. And what happened there made me decide that it would be in everyone's best interests for me to separate myself from Wikipedia, and that's what I really want to do. You should decline this case request. You should also expect that a case will in fact be needed a few months from now. The problem is that the community decided at ANI that there should be an RfC that would settle the question of whether or not to have prices on med pages – but the RfC that resulted ended in "no consensus" about the central question. So here you have some editors interpreting the RfC results to mean one thing, and other editors interpreting it to mean the opposite. Before you will be able to evaluate any conduct issues, the community will need to figure out the content issue. (Otherwise, what Guy predicts just above, with parties trying to litigate content through the case, is exactly what will happen.) ArbCom clearly cannot parse "no consensus" into a consensus. So the community needs to try again, to get a consensus where a consensus did not emerge so far. It's very possible to do that, but it will require an RfC that is designed to do so (and please leave me out of it). There will be three possible outcomes: (1) the community will find a consensus that is generally agreed upon, and the dispute will resolve itself, (2) there will be a consensus, but some editors refuse to abide by it, in which case ArbCom will need to act, or (3) editors will not cooperate in creating the RfC, and ArbCom will need to act on ''that''. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 === Statement by {Non-party} ===