Talk:Tien Shinhan

Tien

Can someone make Tien redirect to this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buster Sword (talk • contribs)

Already done, seems to be a while ago. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 00:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Incorrection

this page is incorrect.The book Dragon ball dayzenshuu 7 published in Japan france and Canada by Akira Toriyama says Tenshinhan is an alien and belongs to the race of three eyes or Triclops.

The game for PS2 DBZ Budokai tenkaichi in the biographies says the same.Victtorio 16:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)Victtorio

Those are pretty far from cannonical sources. For now, let's put that in the trivia if you want to add it. (Keep in mind that, in the manga, Tien also isn't the first warrior with the ability to divide himself, Purple Ninja can do the same). Beowulph 23:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

For me is very clear you never read dragon ball dayzenshuu 7 where Toriyama explains the difference between Tenshinhan technique and krilin piccolo or purple ninja body divisions and because of that Toriyama and his team gave different names for that techniques.Look, in the other wikipedias like japanese french or portuguese this situation is very well explained only in the english this regrettable situation happens. Probably you don t know french or japanese,but if you don´t believe me i have the book and i can give you the link of the original french version and you can check it,then you will see the alien condition of Tenshinhan is a fact in Japan and Europe, i am trying to give to the american fanbase the true.However the decision is yours. Dayzenshuu 7 is the only book where akira toriyama states everything he couldn t put in the manga for different reasons and he writes an introduction explaining that.In any part of manga or anime says Tenshinhan is human.But to add that in the trivia is a start.Thank you,i wait your answer..Victtorio 01:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Victtorio

Well,i saw your correction in trivia,it is obvious you refuse the introduction (made by Akira toriyama )and the several parts (like alien races in dragon ball/alien races on earth,the explanation of tenshinhan techniques)of daizenshuu 7 where they say very directly tenshinhan is an alien. For you are only suggestions.Ok,but remember this is the only wikipedia or country where Tenshinhan is considered an human all the others Japan and Europe and respective wikipedias say tenshinhan is an alien.A good day for you Victtorio 14:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Victtorio

• Toriyama didn't write the Daizenshû himself, but he has read it, enjoyed it, and he approved the book for release. We also know that he himself wrote some paragraphs in the book. Thus it's a canonical source. However we can wonder how the "tenshinhan is an extraterrestrial" thing was really usefull, as it has never been brought forth in the manga. But since Gokû's tail makes him an extraterrestrial, why couldn't Tenshinhan's 3rd eye make him alien also ? And the manga didn't specifically state that Ten' was a human. Thus the alien explanation is at least coherent and it should be mentionned in the infobox, at least in the form "human/alien". Folken de Fanel 18:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Why the debate? I tried my best to word it in a way to say that it's true that it says that, but not nescessarily that it's actually true...

The Budokai PS2 game says that Tenshinhan comes from an unknown alien race, hence his third eye and ability to divide himself. So Victtorio is right. It also says that Chaozu is some sort of Vampire, and not human. Hakkinen 15:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes but it's not because it was written in a lower canonical source that is not dumb. Well, "get over it" yourself, in the manga, Ten' was always a human and Toriyama never said anything about Ten being an "alien". As for Chaozu, he was never labelled as a "vampire" in the original work (and honestly, he really doesn't look like a vampire).

So while there are these strange theories in lower canon source, they're not always relevent, and if they deserve to be mentionned in the article, they must not interfere with the rest of the article, which is mainly based on the original manga, in which Ten' is a human. Folken de Fanel 16:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Right. So does Daizenshuu book 7 count as a "lower canon source" as well? Hakkinen 10:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The Daizenshuu are full of inconsistancies and fallacies. They are good for refrence material but nothing in them can be accepted as accurate without evidence from other sources such as the manga itself.172.166.22.144 03:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The manga is full of inconsistancies and fallacies too.The Daizenshuu 7 is coherent with the manga. Except for the Raditz number which is only a typo, as Toriyama did many times in his manga. Wake up, you're not Toriyama and he approved the encyclopedia. In the introduction,akira said he could find in daizenshuu 7 the details he forgot to mention in the manga like tien's alien condition. Some people hate daizenshuu 7, because tien as an alien destroys yamcha statement about the strongest human.Tien was a lot stronger than krillin (in the entire series), because Super buu said tien was pretty strong and previously he faced krillin and ain't said nothing.Super buu statement is above yamcha(tien wasn´t there) coz super buu saw tien and krillin and yamcha only saw krillin. Then comes daizenshuu 7 to enlight this situation created by fans. I think the theory about meditation is funny and pathetic,because it is an unsourced statement.A nonsense fan made.The last word ALWAYS belong to Akira toriyama.Wake up he is the creator of the show. Several times the book states tien is an alien. The origin of the characters is an important thing.There isn't any author in the world who approves something about his work with an huge mistake like that. There isn´t one single word in the manga or anime about it.The Pl's are a different story and sometimes subjective or a plot device. So, tien is an alien and that is a fact.I guess,some of you are above Akira Toriyama.

Eh, just leave it like it is with a note in trivia. The manga and anime never say anything about him (and Chaozu) not being human. Abnormal humans, but this is a world that is governed by a talking humanoid dog. Shapeshifting animal people are natives. Goku was excepted as an odd boy with a tail and not pegged as monster or alien because animal/people hybrids exist on Toriyama's Earth. Onikage725

The Daizenshû is much like the "Dune Encyclopedia" insofar as canon is concerned. In both cases, the author found such a work amusing, and thus approved their publishing. However, in that same line of reasoning, "Dragon Ball GT" holds about just as much merit canonically, and I needn't bring up why that'd be a problem. And - never - is Ten's origin elaborated upon in the series. Otherwise, simply reference the chapter. The Magistratus 18:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC) The author found daizenshuu 7 perfect not amusing(read the introduction made in the D.7 by toriyama),don't replace author's words in the dragon ball Z Encyclopedia introduction with your personal wishes.

tenshinhan or krillin

Who is stronger krillin or tenshinhan please support your opinions with evidence. User:Kami-Sama

I would say that Kuririn is stronger. Yamucha once stated that Kuririn was the strongest human being in the universe. So its only logical that Kuririn is stronger than tien. But then again, you cant really trust yamucha can ya?-SSJ Gokan 00:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Tenshinhan is actually stronger than Kuririn, though it may not seem like it because he never gets to show his strength. I would class Tenshinhan the second strongest human after Uub.

There is no evidence either way. Please keep opinions out of the article. Beowulph 11:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Kuririn is the strongest human from the sayian saga to the cell saga, but he stopped traning somtime before the Buu saga and Tenshinhan continued to train. Meaning Tien would be the strongest human by the end of DragonBall Z. --Solid Fox 23:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC) Tenshinhan is always the strongest one by far. There is no evidence either way. Please keep opinions out of the article.

inn the anime when the various characters are all blasting cells kamehameha they were blownnaway in order of power lowest to highest with tein second to last, last being piccolo. not proof enough for the article but evidence 209.244.31.40 (talk) 21:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Third Eye

Does anyone know why Tenshinhan has three eyes if he's a human? I mean, the thing blinks and everything. Sasuke-kun27 17:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It says in the beggining, he's likely based off of the God Erlang Shen from Journey to the West. As for why in the Dragon Ball universe, that's never explained. Beowulph 17:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. It's just wierd how a human has three eyes. Then again, you have aliens who look like humans with tails and can change into giant apes by looking at a full moon. Sasuke-kun27 18:19, 23 August 2006 (UTc)

haha--138.88.90.164 09:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In the ps2 game Tenchikai Budokai his bio says Tein has a third eye because he is of alien desent. --Solid Fox 23:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought he said it was because he'd reahed enlightenment. I guess not.-SSJ Gokan 11:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The kanji characters of Tenshinhan (天津飯) probably do not mean, as stated, "Heaven's Moisted Rice"; Instead 天津 is a city in China (TianJin) and probably 天津飯 means "rice cooked in TianJin style"

wHAT THAT MEAN?

that third eye scares me. but then again you have a gum creature that can turn people into candy, and a white and purple creature that can destroy a planet with one tap of his finger, and machines desgined to look like humans, and a weird bug creature that can absorb people through his tail, and a weird alien that can switch bodies with people who is currently a frog, and a dragon that can turn into mist who was cut in half and sealed into 2 pale elves with mohawks, too.

In both the Ps2 game and my beckett magazineit states he has the third eye becuase he is a normal human being, but he became enlightened. Just wanted to clear that up. - Prede (talk) 02:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you have this reliable magazine, why not beef up the article? Do you know how to use this 'cite book' layout? We can get this page to GA in no time. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I do have the book(I never said both games, I said my game and my Magazine. "BOTH MY GAME AND MY MAGAZINE"), but I'm not sure on how to cite printed stuff. I'll read that, post some information, and try and fix up the article in a bit. - Prede (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Note that you don't have to use all those mark-ups. Use the cite book tags from Naruto Uzumaki as a sample. Does that help? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it helps. Here is the made up info for the magazine :

Brewer, Mark (2002). The Best of DragonBall Z. Beverly Hills , California: Claire B. Amano. pp. 2–6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

- Prede (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Great. Does your book clear up that whole him being an alien controversy? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well what it says is " question: Why does Tien have a third eye. Answer : He has a third eye from becoming enlightened " That's about all it says about his third eye, it says other stuff though like all official power levels given from Toriyama himself, starting from Goku's powerlevel in the beginning of Dragon Ball (10) all the way to Goku's power level at SS 1. It list the "good guys" and the "bad guys" that were main characters in between all that, and it has a little bit of the story - Prede (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Think you could finish including the rest today? I might do some copy-editing and other fixes later once you finish, then it's straight to a WP:GAC review. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. BUT what else would you like me to add. I could post his power levels at certain points in the anime, but I don't know where you would like that. Other then that I wouldn't know what else you would like me to do. What else would you want on the article or scourced. - Prede (talk) 20:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The enlightenment reference would be nice within the content (that Daizenshū citation should be taken off, as no page number or ISBN is listed). The power levels, hmmm, I'll look into that when I return. Regards, Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I added, after the part talking about his eye, that he got it from becoming enlightened. As for deleting the other source I'll leave that up to you, sense the video game source is still good. I'll post the power levels right here (also I have Yamucha and the other characters power levels up to when Future Trunk apears)

 Tiens Power level at 22 Tenkaichi Budouki - 180
 Tiens Power level shortly after the fight with Radizt - 250
 Tiens Power level when Vegeta and Nappa Arive - 1,830

(Note Nappa says the Saibamen's Power level is the same as Raditz's. This is comparing apples and oranges. They're not exaclty the same, but they're in the same neighborhood Radizt - 1,500 Saibamen - 1,200) (Note Nappas Power Level is 4,000 and Frieza's Final form Max Power is only 530,000 Frieza says that his second form is over 1 million. That is simply psychological warfare and a bluff)

All of that is exaclty taken from the magazine, direct quotes, but from different parts. - Prede (talk) 20:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll get back to this tomorrow (didn't think I'd get home so late). Right now it's watchlist checking, and off to bed. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

lol this guy is joke and a liar, DBZ BT 1 lists tenshinhan as an alien and daizenshuu 7 states several times tenshinhan as an alien. The theory about enlightment is fan made and he must show scans about the book plus an encyclopedia revised and supervised by Toriyama and made by toriyama's manga staff is above this phantom book. Japanese wikipedia lists tenshinhan as an alien and this fanboy comes up with made up facts,please... english wikipedia is a joke,but everybody already knows it.Someone can give him a brain,lol. Statements without references made by fanboys=wikipedia,lol.Tenshinhan is in fact an alien. I love these references : reference number 30=crap made by a fanboy,lol reference number 31=mark brewer(who the fuck is he?let me guess a japanese mangaka who worked with toriyama's staff,lol. This article is awesome,lol.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.23.133.163 (talk) 11:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 

If he is an alien then I suggest you post the daizenshuu 7 . If you post that and it shows he is an alien then we will put that up there. That will prove that he is an alien, and we will write that and source the daizenshuu 7. Otherise all your saying is nonsense, and I won't believe it. I can't understand you half the time. BUT Like I've been saying magazine (along with the video game) says he has the third eye from becoming enlightened. If this is incorrect please feel free to post controdicting info from the daizenshuu. Maybe both these sources made mistakse? They were printed by human beings after all. It is possible, but I doubt it. - Prede (talk) 19:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Very well,daizenshuu 7 isn't the only source where you can see tenshinhan as an alien. Official dragon ball magazine Norma Editorial number 2 also lists tenshinhan as an alien. Racial groups in daizenshuu 7 [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3716/gruposraciaisd7oy1.gif[/IMG][/URL] in dragon ball universe the 3 most important races are: the earthlings, sayajins and nameks,but other extraterrestrial races also appear in the story. People with specific skills like the yardrats metamols and the Three Eyes(mitsume jins) ancestors of tenshinhan. Les terriens=the earthlings Several aliens landed in the earth: They are the sayajins,nameks and the three eyes.

Shishin no ken:

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6541/shishinnokendg6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Technique of the 4 bodys used by Tenshinhan against goku in the 23º budokai tenkaichi. One of the special skills made by the Three Eyes or triclops Race... His power however splits in four what becomes tenshinhan weaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.23.133.162 (talk) 14:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

In tenshinhan's bio also says he is an alien, i can also give you the page numbers and even the scans from dragon ball official magazine. Unfortunately everything will be useless,because a fanboy group in wikipedia decided daizenshuu 7 is not canon. However dragon ball official magazine also lists tenshinhan as an alien. These fanboys ignore this additional information about tenshinhan in copyrighted books,worse in the dragon ball daizenshuu 7 supervised by akira toriyama who is an idiot because he approved and revised a release where several times tenshinhan is listed as an alien. Congratulations, dragon ball project in wikipedia is awesome. Finally how do you explain the fact that japanese wikipedia and dragon ball official magazine and daizenshuu 7 lists tenshinhan as an alien? We have 3 sources here and one of them with Akira Toriyama supervision and revision. Can Akira Toriyama read? This encyclopedia says not one time but several times why tenshinhan is an alien and explains it(racial groups, bio section and techniques section). There is no room for mistakes. I don't know what video game are you talking about,however dragon ball Z budokai tenkaichi 1 lists tenshinhan as an alien.

Here is the link where some fans discuss the subject and Olivier Hague explains why tenshinhan is an alien.However Olivier never saw the information about Tenshinhan in dragon ball official magazine who reinforced daizenshuu 7 revelation about tenshin's origin. http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.php?t=3605&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tenshinhan&start=60 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.23.133.162 (talk) 15:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I told you all ready if you post the daizenshuu 7 It could be considered a valid refference. I never said it's not cannon. Anyay I'm no "fanboy" . I don't really like Tien too much, I like Raditz and Yamcha, but whatever. I'll go through the rest of what you said later. - Prede (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I already posted the scans about tenshinhan in daizenshuu 7(french version),did i not? What do you want?More scans who state the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.23.133.163 (talk) 19:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't read french, and I haven't looked over everything you posted yet. I've been busy. But I will... Sorry - Prede (talk) 01:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok I looked over all the links. Acurding to those links, it is saying he is a decendent of an alien race. But I can't really read the french... But then the forum you linked questioned the daizenshuu. They say it may be an error. If the daizenshuu did not make a mistake then the game and my Bekket Magazine made a huge mistake. Either way one of them made a HUGE and odd error. I really don't know what to make of this. BUT thanks for posting the daizenshuu 7. I'm at a loss of what to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prede (talk • contribs) 23:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

Fine, explain why they should stay. Please try to make it not pointless. Nemu 18:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep it civil Nemu. I personally believe it adds value and does not go over previously set limits for the amount of pictures per article. If you do not, and we can't reach a consensus then the best course of action would be to take it to the Wikiproject for a vote. Beowulph 18:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The fair use policy only says we should use images to illustrate things that need to be. These pictures are here for the sake of being here, and serve no illustrational purpose. The limit only applies to pictures that serve a purpose. That's why most articles no longer have the pictures that the use to have. Nemu 18:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Really? It looks to me like it has roughly the same amount as the Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and Cell articles, not to mention the one on Buu. I would argue against their not serving any illustrating purpose, as they mostly show events that are definitive for the character.

Tell me, do we have a definition for what constitutes illustrating purpose? A new set limit on the number of pictures per article? Is there a policy I can refer to? Beowulph 18:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If you didn't notice, all besides Freeza illustrate different looks of a character or an example of an attack (which is why I left them here). A picture has to show something being described. We don't need to see random events. Those are decorative. Nemu 18:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of different looks, and special attacks, are alright, but not specific moments? The pictures in question do show something being described in the text and one of the ones that you wanted to initially erase was a special attack. Regardless, can you provide me with the link that states that policy? Beowulph 18:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:FU says "The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose."

Different looks of a character over a series are pretty helpful. Goku could probably use that GT group picture to cut them down a bit, but otherwise they illustrate the points(and the transformations are a pretty important part of the series). Random scenes do not. I guess attacks probably should also be removed. While it is sort of subjective, no one has ever gone against me for too long while clearing out other articles, so the general consensus seems to be that they don't help. Nemu 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tell you what, there seems to be a pretty major revision going on at the Dragon Ball project. If it can be passed that each saga/movie article gets a characters section, this article can probably be distributed into them and removed entirely. Can we hold off until a decision is made there? Beowulph 15:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Dissemination

I'm starting to disperse the information on this page to the various saga pages, I think it can likely be made into a redirect to the List of Earthlings article. Beowulph 15:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tenshinhan photo.jpg

Image:Tenshinhan photo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 09:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Power Levels

From the sreator himself. Quoted from my Bekket Magazine.

 Tiens Power level at 22 Tenkaichi Budouki - 180
 Tiens Power level shortly after the fight with Radizt - 250
 Tiens Power level when Vegeta and Nappa Arive - 1,830

(Note Nappa says the Saibamen's Power level is the same as Raditz's. This is comparing apples and oranges. They're not exaclty the same, but they're in the same neighborhood Radizt - 1,500 Saibamen - 1,200) (Note Nappas Power Level is 4,000 and Frieza's Final form Max Power is only 530,000 Frieza says that his second form is over 1 million. That is simply psychological warfare and a bluff)

- Prede (talk) 00:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Prede

Where are your references and sources who state tenshinhan as an alien and what about your amazing fake powerlevels. Come on for once show us some proof about your unsourced claims. Your nonsense is amusing,please tell us more. The forum i linked nobody said it could be an error stop with your biased selective nonsense and lies. Some fanboys questioned if daizenshuu 7 was canon or not.Season 1 dbz uncut dvd also lists tenshinhan as an alien descendant. If your book claims something prove it,you already lied too much about this.Cut the crap, you were busy to read my scans but every single time someone deleted your nonsense there you go prede was ready to restore his biased unsourced nonsense. Show us the reference about this nonsense,lol "Tenshinhan is often compared with Yamucha in terms of both power and popularity."and this one too ^ "Biographies Tien"-WTF is this crap?????lol something official,ahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Warning don't try to delete this again or i will report you for abuse here. This is a discussion and both of you are ignoring wikipedia rules with unsourced editions. About folken he already confirmed what i said period. Impersonate folken?? Are you illiterate? In the message above "incorrection" folken said what i told you --~~the-one~~195.23.133.162 (talk)the-one195.23.133.162 (talk)

This is a fact, Yamcha has a big organized fanbase and few fanmangas, unlike Tenshinhan. And they are much close in power in android/cell saga, and that is a fact that every true Dragon Ball otaku will tell you. SSJ 5 (talk) 15:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yamcha left the trainings after cell saga how are they close? Fan made =trash non-canon.Saxnot--Saxnot (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The third eye is from becoming enlightened

Where did this come from? The source doesn't seem to be valid? Or am I wrong? SSJ 5 (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong the source is valid the encyclopedia says by akira toriyama and enlightenment is a fan made theorie--Saxnot (talk) 16:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The source is from my DragonBall Z Beckett Magazine. It is NOT a " a fan made theorie" it was printed in a MAGAZINE. But I think there may be a mistake, because some user insists the dayzenshuu 7 states he is an alien. I am waiting for a response from a person with the dayzenshuu 7, to check this. - Prede (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are waiting????????????????????????????????????? I already provided scans and everybody knows daizenshuu 7 states tenshinhan as an alien instead you never provided scans about your magazine so i don't believe in your word. Enlightenment is a fan made theorie. I also have dragon ball OFFICIAL magazine norma editorial 2 who also confirms tenshinhan as an alien. You can ask in all the forums ( you can't see a simple image) and everybody will tell you it is true and about the user you are waiting for,he already confirmed the same THING above in the topic incorrection.Unfortunately you cannot deal with the truth.-Saxnot (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)