SA reads discussion

Welcome to week two

Hi! I have a question which John or someone else may be able to help with. Reference is made quite often in regard to Mandela's early years to democracy. I thought democracy came from the Greeks, that is, Western European culture. Is the term just being used loosely here or were the Xhosas exposed to the concept of democracy through missionaries, perhaps?

I shall start the Week Two thread with a blog-post entitled: COMMUNISTS AND INDIANS.

http://www.johnmountford.com/blog/

Leanne wrote: "Hi! I have a question which John or someone else may be able to help with. Reference is made quite often in regard to Mandela's early years to democracy. I thought democracy came from the Greeks, t..."

Leanne, who makes the reference to democracy? Could you give me one of these references as an example of context.

The following quotations from this week's section stood out to me, and they reflect some of what John mentions in his blog post:

“To be an African in South Africa means that one is politicized from the moment of one’s birth, whether one acknowledges it or not.”

“The ANC was the one organization that welcomed everyone, that saw itself as a great umbrella under which all Africans could find shelter.”

Regarding the Congress Youth League: “African nationalism was our battle cry, and our creed was the creation of one nation out of many tribes, the overthrow of white supremacy, and the establishment of a truly democratic form of government.”

Then, the tone changes somewhat as Mandela makes the following statement and comes to the conclusion that violence will ultimately prove necessary:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.”

I thought that communism was a real force at play already too. Mandela speaks of not wanting to join forces with them initially, I thought.

Desperate times require desperate measures. In the midst of a war for independence you might imply loyalty to any faction that even remotely promises assistance. At the end of the day, free markets in South Africa were an establishment. To do away with them would have required the elimination of the country that was being fought over. If communism was a real part of South Africa, it was a rhetorical appeal intended to provide for the survival of a movement.

Don wrote: "Was a potential communist state just a "bogeyman"? If you think you would enjoy a communist state, then sure its a bogeyman. But as I was reading it, I got the idea that communism was not just a ..."

Don,
It was a bogeyman as far as the government was concerned. They knew that the threat of an actual communist takeover of power in SA was not a real one, yet they used it to scare a fearful white public for whom it was very real. The West was watching the situation closely, and it was only once the Cold War ended and the Berlin Wall fell that the US and Britain began to put serious pressure on SA to negotiate.
There is no denying that the Communist Party was alive and well in the ANC, but it would not have survived without the ANC, as is the case today.

Daniel wrote: "Desperate times require desperate measures. In the midst of a war for independence you might imply loyalty to any faction that even remotely promises assistance. At the end of the day, free marke..."
Well said. The ANC were also well aware of their lack of organisational and management ability - a gap the Communist Party filled - even still today.

I thought there was surprisingly little information on Mandela's courtship of, and marriage to, his first wife, Evelyn. Do you ladies smell a rat?

John wrote: "I thought there was surprisingly little information on Mandela's courtship of, and marriage to, his first wife, Evelyn. Do you ladies smell a rat?"

I agree. I was a bit disappointed in the lack of information about his home life in general. I understand that the focus is on his political career and the overall situation in South Africa, but I still would have liked more personal background. I kept waiting for it, but so far it's been glossed over. Hmm...

The Communist Party played an important part in the anti apartheid struggle. The ANC was very much a black focused organisation against apartheid whereas the Communist Party was less focused on race and more on a class struggle. However both parties wanted an end to apartheid and the Communist party therefore became one of the main vehicles for white persons who wanted to be involved in the anti apartheid struggle. Like John said, the communist party was better organised and provided the ANC with important support to enable various projects to succeed. It made a major contribution to the drafting of the Freedom Charter as well.

As an aside, early in Chapter 11 there is a reference to AP Mda. He is the father of South African author Zakes Mda and would become a founding member of the PAC.

Carolien wrote: "The Communist Party played an important part in the anti apartheid struggle. The ANC was very much a black focused organisation against apartheid whereas the Communist Party was less focused on rac..."

Good point about the class struggle, Carolien. Thank you.
About Zakes Mda's father: did you notice how Mandela described him as 'a lean fellow with no excess weight'. I teased Zakes about this on twitter, and he took it well. The good life in the USA to blame.

Lol!

His dad sounds like an interesting character. I was fascinated when I read Sometimes there is a Void – Memoirs of an Outsider that the PAC was regarded as the more liberal (in the modern sense) party compared to the ANC at the time of its founding.

There's another bit where Madiba writes that the party is bigger than the individual. How interesting to watch that sentiment currently playing itself out with Nkandla.

Mandela's 2nd son once asked his mother:
"Where does daddy live?"

For Mandela, the struggle was all-consuming. Home was little more than a place he went to eat and sleep. Although he often expressed his regret at neglecting his loved ones in favour of the struggle, he was never able to bring himself to do anything about it or to compromise.
What is it about some men that a cause can become more important to them than the love and gratitude of their own family and loved ones?
I too was such a man for a large portion of my marriage. I sacrificed fifteen years of my married life for a cause that I believed was greater than my family. Fortunately I survived because my wife was even greater.

How do you feel about causes and marriage? Are they justified? Is this the inevitable price of greatness?

New blog post: MANDELA LEARNS A LESSON
http://www.johnmountford.com/blog/

Thanks for the insightful post about how the Indians taught Mandela about non-violence and working toward a common goal. This quotation from Mandela came to mind when I read your blog post: “If a particular method or tactic enabled us to defeat the enemy, then it should be used. In this case, the state was far more powerful than we, and any attempts at violence by us would be devastatingly crushed. This made nonviolence a practical necessity rather than an option. This was my view, and I saw nonviolence in the Gandhian model not as an inviolable principle but as a tactic to be used as the situation demanded.”

Don, I'm thinking that on paper, communism appeals more than oppression of one by another.
Sarah and John, I wondered why Evelyn Mase was a mere footnote; plus the movie and recent events in SA suggested that NM had multiple extramarital affairs- I do not know if this is true or not.
Perhs this speaks to the fact that we always want to show as much of our good side as possible and hide that which is painful from the prying eyes of the world.
Carolien, I missed Mda! Thanks for pointing that out.

Enjoying your blogs John.

Sarah wrote: "Thanks for the insightful post about how the Indians taught Mandela about non-violence and working toward a common goal. This quotation from Mandela came to mind when I read your blog post: “If a p..."

Exactly. Mandela has a way of seeing things clearly and applying simple logic to a situation. I think this is an African way of thinking - I am often amazed on talk radio of how simply-wise many black callers are. They are seldom hurried in their thought processes, and get to the heart of a matter while many others talk around it. I love listening to them express their opinions.

Lisa wrote: "Enjoying your blogs John."

Thanks Lisa.

John wrote: "I think this is an African way of thinking - I am often amazed on talk radio of how simply-wise many black callers are. They are seldom hurried in their thought processes, and get to the heart of a matter while many others talk around it. I love listening to them express their opinions."

You captured this very well with Boxer's character in "Kill Mandela"! :-)

Mandela accused Chief Luthuli of being scared of the white man. He withdrew the remark and apologized when Luthuli threatened to resign.

Did Mandela believe this to be true?
Was fear of the white man the reason the ANC clung to non-violence for so long?
How does this fit in with Mandela's earlier aspiration to be "a black Englishman"?

If you oppress someone for long enough, tell them how worthless they are for long enough; you break them and convince them of their worthlessness. I can imagine that fear and horror were majority emotions. Activists were needed to stand up to the oppressor and encourage the oppressed.

When Nelson was small, he used to attend the meetings of the leaders and wished to eavesdrop but was usually sent away. He refers to a democratic process. Later on, when he was standing for the SRC at Fort Hare, the way the student protest was dealt with was described as undemocratic. I wish I could provide page numbers for these instances but unfortunately I am reading the book on Audible and cannot even search for the references. I just found it interesting that the young Nelson should have registered fairness in this way, and perhaps it was a case of the mature man projecting western concepts onto his youthful experiences.John wrote: "Leanne wrote: "Hi! I have a question which John or someone else may be able to help with. Reference is made quite often in regard to Mandela's early years to democracy. I thought democracy came fro..."

John wrote: "Leanne wrote: "Hi! I have a question which John or someone else may be able to help with. Reference is made quite often in regard to Mandela's early years to democracy. I thought democracy came fro..."

This is an intriguing question, John, and one which I too have thought a lot about. It is heroic to put a cause before oneself and one's family, but heroism is, in itself, rather a selfish thing. Heroism is always in the eye of the beholder, which means it has to do with image and reputation rather than personal integrity and truth. Leaving the cause in favour of becoming congruent to one's own needs, desires and responsibilities is, I believe, a necessary step in personal growth. We saw Mandela prioritise his marriage in later life and he was no less highly regarded for doing so.John wrote: "Mandela's 2nd son once asked his mother:
"Where does daddy live?"

For Mandela, the struggle was all-consuming. Home was little more than a place he went to eat and sleep. Although he often express..."

John wrote: "Mandela's 2nd son once asked his mother:
"Where does daddy live?"

For Mandela, the struggle was all-consuming. Home was little more than a place he went to eat and sleep. Although he often express..."

Leanne wrote: "When Nelson was small, he used to attend the meetings of the leaders and wished to eavesdrop but was usually sent away. He refers to a democratic process. Later on, when he was standing for the S..."

Thanks, Leanne.
Yes, I remember these references well. I think:
1) You are correct - NM is using the word and concept of democracy in retrospect.
2) The process he describes with the elders was fair, but not democratic. The tribal chief does not rule by democracy, but by participation. All are heard, and then the chief, and not the majority, takes a decision. Normally the chief attempts to achieve consensus before deciding.
3) The SRC process was autocratic.

Leanne wrote: "This is an intriguing question, John, and one which I too have thought a lot about. It is heroic to put a cause before oneself and one's family, but heroism is, in itself, rather a selfish thing. ..."

An interesting response. Is it fair too say that if we are all heroes in our families or immediate circle of influence, the world would have no need of 'superheroes'? I like the concept, but have not thought it through.

Lisa wrote: "If you oppress someone for long enough, tell them how worthless they are for long enough; you break them and convince them of their worthlessness. I can imagine that fear and horror were majority e..."

Lisa, one gets the impression throughout that all who had anything to do with NM respected him, and treated him as an equal (white) despite his race. He never expected anything less, and never acted in a manner to suggest otherwise. He was never oppressed - it was impossible to oppress him, because his self worth was greater than the prejudice that surrounded him.
This is the hallmark of great human beings - their self-awareness is so complete that nothing is able to break it down. These are the people who define the word integrity. This is the the ideal we all strive for, but find ourselves so often falling short of. This is inner peace, despite outer turmoil.

Lisa wrote: "Don, I'm thinking that on paper, communism appeals more than oppression of one by another.
Sarah and John, I wondered why Evelyn Mase was a mere footnote; plus the movie and recent events in SA su..."

Hi all. I finally have a copy of the book and able to join the discussion. Yey. (If autocorrect will allow me).

Lisa, I also think that he's glossed over his first marriage and any unseemly issues that might have arisen. Certainly that short anecdote about Dlamini who lived with him for a while and criticized his wife'is cooking must have caused tensions. I understand hospitality to ones clans men, but if NM was motivate to go and sort out the problem that caused Scott have Dlamini to leave the shanty town then it must have been pretty bad. Specially remembering Scott had fled for his life.

For me, although the information was brief, I think it was enough. as the main reason I'm reading the book is to see how NM morphed into a pan cultural and pan ethnic leader, I would have found it distracting to have to read about his home life.

The lack of information on this personal side of his life could also indicate that he hadn't been able to distance himself from it after so many years.

John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If you oppress someone for long enough, tell them how worthless they are for long enough; you break them and convince them of their worthlessness. I can imagine that fear and horror w..."

Hey John, when speaking of the oppressed, I was attempting to address your question as to whether or not black people were afraid of white people. I think that there would have been those broken under the system of Apartheid.
Mandela for me was not oppressed, he was an activist who was needed as a rallying point for hope and courage.
Having reread my comment, I realize it was unclear and hope it has more clarity

Indeneri wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Don, I'm thinking that on paper, communism appeals more than oppression of one by another.
Sarah and John, I wondered why Evelyn Mase was a mere footnote; plus the movie and recent e..."
Good to see you!
You raise some great points!
I actually wondered if personal details were edited out by an editor as NM gave beautiful detail as to his early family life.
I like to look at how development and family life influences a person's development as themself.
For example, perhaps NMs fantastic dedication to the children's fund and to children in general came from not just a great love of children, but a need to be there for someone when he had been uncontrollably absent from his own children's lives.

What stands out for me in the first two weeks of reading is how loyal NM is to his beliefs, and yet he is able to analyze them from the outside and change his way of thinking when he found greater in scope or better. He wasn't anchored to his beliefs or egotistical about being introduced to new concepts,

Also a sign of a great leader is that he can walk amongst his people, and NM walked from herding sheep in Qunu, to living with a local chief, to studying and working with Indians and coloureds and whites, from financial wealth and stability to being dirt poor.

I don't think there are many of us that have experienced society first hand on so many different levels.

Lisa wrote: "John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If you oppress someone for long enough, tell them how worthless they are for long enough; you break them and convince them of their worthlessness. I can imagine that fear..."
I understood you well, Lisa. Sorry, my response obviously did not make that clear. I agreed with you - just amplified what you said.

Mandela says he was strongly drawn to a classless culture - Marx's basic dictum of:
"From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs."

Now, he says he wasn't a communist, and looking at the model of government that followed his election he certainly wasn't a socialist. His hand-picked successor, Thabo Mbeki, had every opportunity to move away from a capitalist system, but he in fact drew closer to it.
What was Mandela? Who was he really in political terms? Did imprisonment fundamentally change his approach to governance? What do the ANC really believe in?

As far as I am aware he never formally joined the Communist Party. He answers the question to a certain extent at the end of Chap 13. He was an African Nationalist first and foremost. Many ideas of the Communist Party formed an existing part of African traditional life already and I don't think it seemed so important to him at the time.

That said, it has never stopped the SACP from making a claim to him. Their current election posters has the slogan "Do the right thing for Madiba/Chris Hani. Vote for the ANC". The two parties had a very close alliance. A very good book on SACP and the anti apartheid struggle is Rivonia's Children. Another interesting read is Stones against the mirror. The SACP is still regarded as the intellectual part of the Alliance.

His lack of a domestic life was not unusual for the activists. Gillian Slovo gives an insight in what it was like as a small child growing up in the struggle where your parents were always operating in secrecy. Her biography of her parents is quite interesting in that regard and obviously another insight into the SACP. I do find the lack of detail on how he was supporting himself through his legal work a bit of a gap.

I get the impression that Mandela's involvement with the Communist party was not based on belief in communism by him, but rather the old saws that 'politics makes strange bedfellows' and 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

Up until joining this group, I have been completely ignorant of the politics of South Africa, but I do see parallels between your country and mine. In the United States in the 50s and 60s, segregationists were also strongly anti-communists. Anyone who opposed their segregationist views was labeled a communist. I assume this was similar to the apartheid government in South Africa. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his associates were often accused of being communists, and surveiled for it. The Suppression of Communism Act in SA roughly coincided with the McCarthy hearings in the USA. And surely there was Communist Party support of the civil rights movement in this country just as there was in South Africa. But in the final analysis, and I assume this was probably true in SA as well, the association was one of political convenience rather than of shared philosophy. Of course, the Communist Party in America is greatly in disrepute. If it is politically active at all, it is completely covert.

Thanks for the great input above.
I think one of the things that made Mandela unique was that he could not be defined as belonging to any specific group. The influences on his life were so varied, and his mind so open to truth and reason wherever he encountered it, that he truly became 'A Man for all Seasons'in the end. I am glad he was spared the decline of his beloved organization, the ANC.

Lisa wrote: "Don, I'm thinking that on paper, communism appeals more than oppression of one by another.
Sarah and John, I wondered why Evelyn Mase was a mere footnote; plus the movie and recent events in SA su..."

As their marriage was falling apart, Evelyn obviously had trouble believing that Nelson was at meetings every night, although he says that he proved it to her by explaining his where-abouts. As I was reading this part, I was thinking how odd it was that the two of them held some of the same core beliefs, but the reasons for holding them were completely different. And, of course, the non-violence belief that he held, and which Evelyn would have continued to hold, was rapidly coming to an end. He struggled with feeling that he should do more for his family, but he never seriously considered putting them first, did he? He was sure that his calling was political.

Late in his life, he always mentioned that he regretted that he spent so little time with his family. However, he didn't regret the consequences of his actions. It is well known that he adored children and once he was out of prison, he spent a lot of time with his grandchildren and any other children that was around. Jay Naidoo who was his Minister of Communications tells how Mandela played with his toddler when he was around. The Mandela Children's fund was the main charity that he created.

Carolien wrote: "Late in his life, he always mentioned that he regretted that he spent so little time with his family. However, he didn't regret the consequences of his actions. It is well known that he adored chil..."

He spoke very lovingly of his children at the time of his divorce from Evelyn, and it's obvious that he was worried about them. It's of course very easy to think, "well, for Pete's sake, why have children if you're not going to be around?" but real life, as you're living it, doesn't give us clear-cut answers. Or even the right questions! Although he knew he was destined to be a freedom fighter, and as the fight went on knew that it was going to be more and more absorbing, he didn't know that he was going to be in jail for decades. The future, no matter how smart we are or think we are, is always a mystery.

I did wonder, though, who was taking care of the children even before their divorce? He mentions that his mother and sister lived them for apparently a short time, but who was responsible day-to-day, I wonder? After the divorce, how much does he see them? What a hard life for all of them!

And Winnie, who is mostly financially responsible for his new family, what kind of maternity leave and childcare is happening here? "Sister Ida" is in place; is it cheaper to hire house-help so that Winnie can continue to work?

I loved Ida's story, too. It cracked me up that Nelson Mandela, of all people, could be an oppressor!

The history in this book is amazing to me. I had no idea that "apartheid" was a concept that was developed after WW2. And I've always thought that ending slavery as the Brits did, long before the American Civil War was fought, ended the matter. I also was shocked at the Nation Party's admiration of Hitler. Who admires Hitler?!?

The fact that all of this is playing out during the time of the Civil Rights movement in the U.S. is also mind-boggling to me. The Africans didn't even have the RIGHT to vote. They are fighting for the most basic rights of citizens. I find it crazy that such insanity is of such recent duration and that it lasted so very long.

Karlyne wrote: "Carolien wrote: "Late in his life, he always mentioned that he regretted that he spent so little time with his family. However, he didn't regret the consequences of his actions. It is well known th..."

Maternity leave probably didn't exist. Until the 1980s, women (of all colours) in the civil service had to resign when they were expecting a baby and could re-apply for a position when they wanted to return.

However, there is a very strong family culture where grandparents and extended family normally helped to look after kids. That may have been one reason Evelyn went back to the Eastern Cape because she would have had a wide support network to assist her in looking after the kids. The definition of "Aunt" and "Cousin" is also quite wide.

Carolien wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Carolien wrote: "Late in his life, he always mentioned that he regretted that he spent so little time with his family. However, he didn't regret the consequences of his actions. It ..."

I'm glad that extended family was such an option for the kids, because as it always seems, anyway, it's hardest on them. Having a loving grandmother, Aunt or Cousin, has to be the best option.

A very minimalist SA history:

Slavery was abolished in South Africa in the 1830's and created a reasonably equal society in the Cape. A group of people who were unhappy with the abolishment of slavery moved 1000 miles north on wagons to escape British rule - event was known as the Great Trek. You can read The Covenant if you like historical fiction. The people were known as Afrikaners or Boers (boer is the Afrikaans word for farmer).

Once gold and diamonds were discovered in these northern areas, the British annexed them during the Anglo-Boer War from 1988 - 1902. The Afrikaners lost their independence the to British. In 1910, the British created the Union of South Africa from the various independent republics that they annexed and some self rule returned to South Africa.

Soon thereafter some legislation started to pass which reduced the rights of blacks, Indians and Coloureds. The 1913 Land Act was the first thereof. The process continued, but was only formalised when the National Party came to power. Many of the National Party stalwarts were direct descendants of the original group that left the Cape in the Great Trek.

Wikipedia is not the worst source here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...

All the same, South Africa also provided one of the chief architects of the creation of the United Nations in Gen Jan Smuts and fought in both the First and Second World War for Britain. We're another nation like the Irish that tends to end up on both sides of any conflict (in the first Gulf War against Saddam Hussein, there were South African designed and manufactured weapons on both sides of the conflict).

I actually had referred to Wiki for at least a bit of clarification! I'm absolutely loving the history and being amused at myself for knowing so little of it. I knew who fought the Boer War and I had a vague knowledge of the Great Trek, but I had never thought about how SA went from British rule to self-rule to apartheid. Did Africans never have the vote; was there never even a pretence at being a democracy ever?

And I also never had an idea that there was an Indian population, too, who was affected.

I thought about Ireland when I read in LWtF that there were many supporters of Germany during the world wars. The Irish, too, pretty much would take any side against the Brits which might give them a chance to get rid of them and were willing to take whatever risk that involved. I've always thought that understandable, but dangerous and near-sighted.

But then I was not living it and so can't really comprehend it and I'm certainly not passing any kind of judgment!

The Indian population has its origins in Indians being brought to Natal to work on the sugar plantations. Mahatma Ghandi was thrown off a train in SA for being the wrong color in the early 1900's, an early example of apartheid.

The Coloureds could definitely vote in the Cape and I think the Indians also had some sort of vote before it was changed in the 1950's.

And until the references to Ghandi, I had no idea that he was a force in SA. I'm finding this book to be such an eye-opener in my view of "modern" history.

Thanks for answering my questions, Carolien!