Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Frame

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete the article was established; a future merge, can, of course, still be discussed on the relevant talk page. (non-admin closure) ——SerialNumber54129 16:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Frame

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Fails WP:GNG TheLongTone (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Dance-related deletion discussions. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 16:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of West Virginia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 16:18, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 16:19, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, subject is the brother of a far more notable dancer–all of the reliable source coverage is about the brother Peter, with barely mere mentions for Paul. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:46, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep~~ WP:HEY I added some Jennifer Dunning reviews from the New York Times archives. Not of Peter, of Paul. also added a detailed 2009 profile of Paul's life and career in the Arizona Republic, He keeps troupe on pain-free toes. I think that there is now enough here to keep.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as subject is a former company member of the New York City Ballet and is now the resident chiropractor at Ballet Arizona. I think that warrants some notability. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
note also that the twin thing has gotten them into several books, including Dancers!: horizons in American dance,Ellen Eichenwald Switzer, Atheneum, 1982. ("Peter Frame has the body of a high school athlete and the face of a model for ski clothes... His brother Paul is his identical twin... and even those who know the two young men well often find it difficult to tell them apart.") . But mostly it's the Jennifer Dunning reviews and the long profile int the Arizona Republic that do it for me.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:20, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Agree with User:Rosguill's findings. Deb (talk) 13:45, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please encounter the detailed profile of Paul in the The Arizona Republic, and the Jennifer Dunning reviews that are about Paul, not the more famous brother. Rosegill's assertion that "all of the reliable source coverage is about the brother Peter, with barely mere mentions for Paul." was flat wrong, and should there fore not be cited without encountering sources brought (added to page,) after he made his comment. E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the point. For a start I can't access the Arizona Republic article, but "He keeps troupe on pain-free toes" doesn't exactly sound like the cue for an article that represents "significant coverage". The Jennifer Dunning review mentions him only once in passing, and also mentions practically every other member of the troupe, most of whom do not have Wikipedia articles - that's certainly not significant coverage. So I still agree with User:Rosguill.Deb (talk) 11:09, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I added 3 Denning reviews to the page. The Arizona Republic article is a long profile of his life, career, and medical work with ballet company. Nor are these the only sources. Books, and news articles have been covering the "twin dancers" angle for years.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:59, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All much in the same vein, unfortunately. I'm not opposed to you continuing to add references and trying to bring it up to a generally-accepted standard of notability. Deb (talk) 15:29, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"much in the same vein" do you mean by this that a pair of twins danced with America's leading ballet company? that notable people like Kathryn Abbe and Frances McLaughlin-Gill found this worthe recording? that they got covered as dancers and twins year after year? As dancers, as twins, even if it is "much in the same vein', when covearge goes on for a lifetime, it does make you notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

'Twins on Twins Hardcover; 1981 book by Julie Szekely, with photos by Kathryn McLaughlin Abbe and Frances McLaughlin-Gill, has a section on the Frame twins. It was published by Clarkson Potter two years before Peter became a soloist, the brothers were both members of the company of the New York City Ballet.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:07, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, expanded his bio from material in the profile in the Arizona Republic, noting that a feature story,profile in a major daily paper cannot be dismissed simply because it is behind a paywall. Added a 2nd article Arizona Republic article covering his medical role with the Arizona Ballet. Note Dancing with the New York City ballet for a decade is a significant achievement. Plus the book, Editors above argue that that "all of the reliable source coverage is about the brother Peter, with barely mere mentions for Paul." I searched, and I found sources that disprove this assertion. E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:09, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a 1981 (i.e. before his twin became a soloist,) article in Newsweek of which I can only view this snippet: "The double-twinned Richmonds, the dancing Frame brothers." it appears to the the title of an article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:28, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep The article from the Arizona Daily is valuable, though it is the only real SIGCOV of Frame we have. Search through ProQuest reveals some routine coverage in The New York Times of ballets he appeared in but not much else. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is more, including multiple books published before the dance career of the other twin took off, one of them [1], which I described above is by two bluelinked photographers. I am making a cumulative argument. Notability in youth for being a twin. Reviews that specifically cover his individual dancing, albeit briefly. Coverage in the regional daily of his post-dancing career as a chiropractor, who works caring for dancers. And, sadly, some discussion of his career in the obituaries of his more notable twin.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:25, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to ~~Paul Frame~~. Suggest that article creator User:Willthacheerleader18 migkt like to selectively MERGE some of the sources to the article on the more notable twin.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:36, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@E.M.Gregory: Did you mean merge to Peter Frame? -- RoySmith (talk) 15:03, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Merge and redirect to Peter Frame. The closer I looked the less SIG the sources looked. for example, the book with photos by Kathryn McLaughlin Abbe and Frances McLaughlin-Gill, was a 2-page photo spread. and other sources are similarly brief, sole exceptions are the 3 brief individual glowing mentions by the dance reviewer for the New York Times and a profile in The Arizona Republic.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jovanmilic97 (talk) 22:51, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.