THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

First off, I'd just like to make it clear, that I am in no way a Nazi sympathizer. To the contrary, I'm as much against Fascist totalitarianism as the next guy, but one has to admit that at some point, Nazi totalitarianism has certain "charms", if that's the right word. In fact, I'm rather daunted at starting this topic, because I feel an inevitable debate on political and historical correctness would be afoot!

For me, by far, the most fascinating character in whole of the War, at least in the political spectrum, would be none other than the Minister of Propaganda himself, Joseph Goebbels. I have just recently finished watching the documentary film "Das Goebbels Experiment", and I found it truly revealing of a tragic character distorted by ideology and ego.

Here was a man afflicted by inadequacies all his life. Having suffered from osteomyelitis resulting in a club foot, he was not permitted to join the Service in the First World War, which embittered him for the rest of his life. He dedicated himself to education to reaffirm his ego and eccentricities, all the while imbuing in himself an ideology, clearly distorted in itself.

He wasn't just another bully boy thug, but he had the awesome capacity in imbuing hatred and inciting murderous atrocity against the Jews and anyone else the party thought to be a threat. He was a man of culture and letters but chose to acquiesce to barbarism.

I feel a sort of pity for him, in the same vein as a veterinarian resignedly, though unwillingly, putting a an animal to sleep. It was only right that he and the ideology he represented was terminated completely and utterly, but the tragedy of his life and those of his children have given me pause for thought. Why such a waste? He could have had the same capacity for polemics as Trotsky, the same political prowess as Talleyrand and to some extent, the same charisma as Hitler himself. My analogies are a little flawed here, but you get the point.

So which leader, icon, soldier or even upstanding civilian do you find fascinating throughout the last great war?

Jolo I read this recently and would highly recommend it: by Toby Thacker

Jolo, I have too much personalities from both sides I am fascinated with...
:)
(and no, of course, I am not an NS-sympathizer, but why I have the need to state this obvious???)

As long as people adhere to the site's and GR's rules I think you can be comfortable in this group discussing any political, military or other personality/character related to the war, and not have to make statements about not being sympathisers of such and such regime for each post.

Being interested in people, their actions, behaviours and how that shaped events or lives is I would suggest a key reason many here read about the Second World War and join in on discussions to learn further or expand their own reading.

Very true Geevee, well put.

Geevee wrote: "As long as people adhere to the site's and GR's rules I think you can be comfortable in this group discussing any political, military or other personality/character related to the war, and not have..."

Thanks for that. I actually feel rather assured. I've been heavily misconstrued before, both from "liberal" and right wing nut cases who think I "sway" their way, and I just thought I had to make that plain.

All good here Jolo. I have numerous books covering the Nazi leaders as well as mant on Stalin and Mao. Just because I am interested in how they came to their position and what they did once there does not mean I think they are ace. To truly understand those who perpetrate evil we need to study both them and the organisation they belong to as well as society at the time. Only by doing this can we hope to stop it ever happening again.

I will now dismount my high horse and return to normal broadcasting.

Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be considered braggarts or boorish by some but I believe that they could and did inspire their men to accomplish their mission/goals. Both leaders showed panache and instilled an esprit de corps in their troops that most other commanders lacked although I am sure there are many better and more solid leaders, these two have always shone through for me.

Some of my favourite books on these men are:

Patton:

by Ladislas Farago

by George S. Patton

Rommel:

by David Fraser

by Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be considered braggarts or boorish by some bu..."

HOLY CRAP! I never knew Infantry Attacks were still in print! THANK YOU!

Jolo wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be considered braggarts..."

I saw it at our local Barnes and Nobel in the last month

happy wrote: "Jolo wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be conside..."

Books like that are actually pretty rare from where I come from. I have to order the books I want online, unfortunately.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be considered braggarts or boorish by some bu..."

Rick I can share you fascination for Rommel - a great combat leader with a tragic end.
He's a really interesting character - never can decide WHAT exactly I should think about him.
Was he a Nazi? Or not?

Morgiana wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel and Patton have always fascinated me. Not the greatest strategic thinkers of WW2 but both great combat leaders as far as I'm concerned. They may be considered braggarts..."

He wasn't necessarily a Nazi. Officially he wasn't a party member. But he admired Hitler to the point of childlike hero-worship during the first half of the Second World War. Despite this, he didn't enforce any orders that would tarnish the Afrika Korps reputation (such as executing Jewish POWs and so on). But he did have some major flaws as a commander, which made him rather unpopular with the German General Staff, as well as even within Hitler's inner circle (Bormann in particular).

I've read David Irving's biography of him, and despite Mr Irving's stance on the holocaust, "the Trail of the Fox" is perhaps one of the finest and most well researched book on Erwin Rommel's life. I highly recommend it. :)

Jolo wrote: "I've read David Irving's biography of him, and despite Mr Irving's stance on the holocaust, "the Trail of the Fox" is perhaps one of the finest and most well researched book on Erwin Rommel's life. I highly recommend it. :)
..."

That's interesting and useful info Jolo, as I have steered clear of all Mr Irving's work precisely because of his stance.

Personally I've always be fascinated with US Gen's Bradley and Hodges. I don't think either one of them get enough credit. I have the new Bradley biography sitting on my book shelf right now and as soon as I catch up on my library reading it will be read.

As for Patton - he had enough personal flaws for all the other generals combined.

He did at that Happy!

I have an interest in Archibald Wavell as both a soldier and man.

I believe he was a good general dealt difficult circumstances. His record is a fair one given Britain's dire straits, multiple challenges in 1940-42 (especially the Greece/Crete debacle) and its very poor preparation for WWII.

He was a useful, and penultimate, Viceroy of India prior to Mountbatten paving the way in terms of plans and agreements with leading Indian politicians prior to eventual independence (and partion with Pakistan). He also had a hand in Slim's appointment (Slim had served on his Staff) and approved Wingate's plans for the Chindits. Unluckily for Wavell he never saw eye to eye with Churchill.

Not the finest British general of WWII (Slim for me) but a good one nonetheless.

Geevee wrote: "I have an interest in Archibald Wavell as both a soldier and man.

I believe he was a good general dealt difficult circumstances. His record is a fair one given Britain's dire straits, multiple ..."

Of the British Gen's I would have to agree - I also would like to read more on Alan Brooke.

I think it is a sad thing that more American's don't know about Slim.

happy wrote: "Geevee wrote: "I have an interest in Archibald Wavell as both a soldier and man.

I believe he was a good general dealt difficult circumstances. His record is a fair one given Britain's dire str..."

Can you recommend any reading on him? I just looked him on Wikipedia, and am definitely interested!

This book comes highly recommend although I don't have a copy myself (something I should rectify I wonder):


by Victoria Schofield

Another title that has picked up some good reviews as well is:


by Adrian Fort

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This book comes highly recommend although I don't have a copy myself (something I should rectify I wonder):


by Victoria Schofield"

Will definitely look it up. Gotta finish the growing stack of books in my room first, though. ;D

Scholfield's book is very good indeed. I have not read Fort's yet as it is hard to come by. For a affectionate portrait try Wavell: Portrait of a soldier by Bernard Fergusson

Fergusson himself is also an interesting character http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_...

Ronald Lewin who wrote a number of books on commanders including Slim and Rommel and one on Wavell

by Ronald Lewin

Being Finnish I have heard and read a lot about both of these men.

Mannerheim: President, Soldier, Spy
From the coronation of the last Tsar to China as a spy and explorer, a general in WWI and then to winning Finnish Civil War and serving as a regent, then a private citizen and humanitarian before becoming the commander in chief in WWII and later the president, a diplomat and a cosmopolitan, decorated by both sides of both world wars, I believe ... I have probably forgotten something still..

Born A Soldier: The Times And Life Of Larry A Thorne
Didn't do much in the Winter War but after a brief trip to Germany in 1941 to train with the Waffen-SS returned to Finland and formed an elite reconnaissance group (one of the men was the future president Koivisto), had a 3 million mark bounty of his head. After armistice in 1944 left for Germany to receive intelligence and sabotage training in case the Soviet Union would occupy Finland. Ended up fighting with Germans against Russians, surrendered to the British/Americans, escaped from the POW camp (I guess), was imprisoned in Finland for treason (Finland had just been at war against Germany), escaped from prison (twice IIRC), went to Sweden and then to Venezuela, jumped from the ship and swam to USA.

Was granted a residence permit through an Act of Congress that was shepherded by the law firm of "Wild Bill" Donovan, the former head of the OSS. Became a recruit in the US Army at the age of 35. Found his way to Special Forces, advanced quickly in rank, taught all kinds of skills and became a legend in Green Berets. Was sent to a secret mission in Iran in which two teams had already failed. Recovered the documents, destroyed the plane and brought back the bodies of soldiers. Was considered one of the best soldiers ever lived. Died in Vietnam when his helicopter crashed.

How are those for life stories?

Hi Tytti,

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. I have a copy of Mannerheim: President, Soldier, Spy that I am yet to read - I better get started :)

by Jonathan Clements

Raoul Wallenberg (WWII)
Manfred von Richthofen (WWI)

Thanks, Rick, I do my best. :-) By the way, Mannerheim was chosen as the "Greatest Finn" in 2004 so he is still very much admired.

Unfortunately I haven't seen either of those books (yet) but judging by the reviews they seem to be pretty good and accurate. The trouble of course is that most of the books I have read, have not been translated into English. Like the stories of those reconnaissance soldiers who were drafted by NATO to do some spying in the early 1950s and did some "tours" into the Soviet Union. One of them actually went alone on his summer holiday in 1946 to get some chocolate from a stash in (now Soviet) Karelian Isthmus that was left there during the major attack in 1944. He couldn't find it, though. But wasn't caught either. Frankly the whole Finnish army was full of personalities, that was our strength probably.

That's a good story about the soldier going back to try and find some chocolate he left in 1946 - glad he wasn't caught by the Russians!

Dr. Michael wrote: "Raoul Wallenberg (WWII)
Manfred von Richthofen (WWI)"

Dr. Michael, have you Alex Kershaw's book on Wallenberg called "The Envoy"? It is outstanding, and I recommend it wholeheartedly.

Yes, read it. I've read all of Kershaw's books. He's an outstanding writer

There has not been a post on this thread for quite some time. I'll make a contribution to reviving it. Here are two personalities of fascination during WW II are:

With a tip of the cap to Tytti -- the Finnish statesman and soldier, Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. He was to his country the "indispensable man," a description coined for our George Washington in the late 18th century. I was very impressed with his:


The Memoirs of Marshal Mannerheim by Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.

My Number Two -- the inimitable British officer and gentleman, Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, VC, KBE,CB, CMG, DSO. He was one of those uniquely British characters of the late 19th - early 20th century. He was born in Brussels and served the British Army in South Africa, Somaliland, World War I, Poland and World War II. He was wounded 11 times -- always on a Sunday. He lost an eye, part of an ear and several fingers in combat. He was awarded the VC for action at La Boiselle in 1916. Carton de Wiart is said to have been the model for General Ritchie-Hook in Evelyn Waugh's "Sword of Honor" trilogy. His memoirs are:

Happy Odyssey by Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart.

He mentioned neither his VC nor his wife, an Austrian countess.

Excellent recommendations Manray9, thanks for the details on both books. I have two books that I am yet to read on Mannerheim:


by Jagerskiold Stig Axel Frido

by Jonathan Clements

Just need a few more hours in the day to catch up with my reading!

Manray9 wrote: "With a tip of the cap to Tytti ..."

Hah, thanks. A very controversial figure, our Marshall Mannerheim. They just criticized him in a new program yesterday about how he handled the major attack by the Soviets in June 1944 but I haven't watched it (yet). Though I don't think there's anything new in it.

Lauri Törni aka Larry Thorne is another interesting figure, an officer who served under three flags.

Thanks Manray9 - Carton de Wiart was a fascinating man and I really must read this book at some time.

Manray9 wrote: "There has not been a post on this thread for quite some time. I'll make a contribution to reviving it. Here are two personalities of fascination during WW II are:

With a tip of the cap to Tytti ..."

I wonder how hard that Mannerheim one is to get? I would be interested in reading that after reading about Sosabowski and Anders.

Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "There has not been a post on this thread for quite some time. I'll make a contribution to reviving it. Here are two personalities of fascination during WW II are:

With a tip of t..."

I think you'll find it difficult to buy. Try an inter-library loan to locate it. Check out: www.worldcat.org , it shows a number of libraries have copies. There are a dozen or so within 200 miles of my house. The searches are based on your location.

Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "There has not been a post on this thread for quite some time. I'll make a contribution to reviving it. Here are two personalities of fascination during WW II are:

With..."


Wow, thanks for that link I will have to give that a shot. I generally do interlibrary on those to read at least enough to see if I want to go to the effort of buying someday. Although with some Like


Third Axis, Fourth Ally: Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941-1945

I find that even though it was a great book the price is prohibitive.

Tytti wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "With a tip of the cap to Tytti ..."

Hah, thanks. A very controversial figure, our Marshall Mannerheim. They just criticized him in a new program yesterday about how he handled the ..."

Is Mannerheim the subject of considerable historical revisionism in Finland? I can understand antipathy towards him from the left, with his activities as a White commander.

Manray9 wrote: "Is Mannerheim the subject of considerable historical revisionism in Finland? I can understand antipathy towards him from the left, with his activities as a White commander. "

No, the attitude towards him has always changed with times. But he did things his way and probably did some mistakes, too.

Here's another interesting personality of WW II, although this book concerns his pre-WW II days. I can hardly imagine surviving as Monty's chief of staff from 1942 - 1945, but de Guingand excelled. This book deals with de Guingand's period in Africa while seconded to the King's African Rifles in Nyasaland (now Malawi).

African Assignment "African Assignment" by Francis de Guingand.

Sounds like a pretty interesting book Manray9, thanks for posting the details.

Manray9 wrote: "Here's another interesting personality of WW II, although this book concerns his pre-WW II days. I can hardly imagine surviving as Monty's chief of staff from 1942 - 1945, but de Guingand excelled..."

I have Operation Victory, by Francis de Guingand which covers the whole war. But doesn't seem to be in the list of books on GoodReads.

Freddie was by all accounts a great guy respected by officers of both the UK and the US. He was likely also responsible for saving Monty's job on at least one occasion.

That said he does have a tendency to gloss things over in favor of Monty. A failing that is to be expected after all if Hamilton can do it, it would be a surprise if Monty's Chief of Staff didn't.

Another interesting WW II personality was King Boris III of Bulgaria -- a reluctant ally of Hitler. He receives much credit for refusing to deport Bulgaria's Jews at Hitler's request, but he acquiesced to the deportation of those Jews residing in territories occupied by Bulgaria (Thrace and Macedonia). Several years ago I read:

Crown of Thorns by Stephane Groueff

Groueff's father worked for the king and was shot by the Communists after the war. Groueff was, perhaps, too sympathetic to Boris, but the book does well in telling the story of a small weak country caught up in the maelstrom of WW II.

Sounds like an interesting and unique book there Manray9, thanks for posting the details.

That might be an interesting read, Bulgaria was in similar position as Finland. We just were luckier.

Because I am also interested in culture (and politics) there are some people I would like to know more about so you could say I was fascinated about them. I have mentioned Hella Wuolijoki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hella_Wuolijoki, the sister of Salme Dutt who was the wife of Rajani Palme Dutt, the leading journalist and theoretician in the Communist Party of Great Britain. Her grandson, the current minister of foreign affairs Tuomioja wrote this book about them Häivähdys punaista. She was a succesful business woman and a well known published author and also friends with Bertolt Brecht who stayed with her during his stay in Finland.

Her husband had been friends with Lenin and Otto Ville Kuusinen, the prime minister of the Terijoki Government and the only Finn buried in Kreml. Kuusinen's daughter, Hertta Kuusinen en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertta_Kuusinen was jailed during the Continuation war in Finland but became a minister after the war. Both Wuolijoki and Kuusinen knew the last woman who was executed in Finland (for spying), seamstress Martta Koskinen.

Kuusinen was married to Yrjö Leino en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrj%C3%B6_Leino who became the Minister of the Interior after the war and those years are often referred to as Finland's "years of peril". He was then also in charge of the "Red Valpo" (= Communist State Police). His daughter from a previous marriage is Lieko Zachovalová who is famous in Finland for her radio reports from Prague in 1968 during the Soviet invasion.

After the war Wuolijoki served as the director of the national broadcasting company YLE and Kuusinen took part in its a popular political discussion/debate program called "Miniature Parliament" with, among others, the future president Urho Kekkonen. After her marriage with Leino ended, she started a much talked about affair with Olavi Paavolainen en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olavi_Paavolainen, then a director in Yle.

Paavolainen had been a well known writer since the 1920s (and "of course" Urho Kekkonen was an editor in one of the magazines Paavolainen wrote). He had visited Germany in 1936 and taken part in the Nuremberg Rally and wrote this book (As a Guest of the Third Reich) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmannen_valta... about his experiences. He held a critical view towards the Nazi ideology. During the war he served in the Information Department of the Headquarters (even though he was often against the official line) and later wrote (A Somber Monologue) based on his diary from the war years.

"Of course" he had also known Minna Craucher en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minna_Craucher who had a dubious past so she fabricated a better one. She was a political schemer (and might have been a spy for Cheka) but she also had a literary salon and a newspaper. She was known for her connections to right wing activists in Lapua Movement. Mika Waltari en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_Waltari who later wrote (I recommend it even though I haven't read it yet) based one of his characters in on her. She was shot in 1932. content.time.com/time/magazine/articl....

So even though not all of them were active during the war years (one dead, two in prison and Leino underground), they had a big influence before and/or after the wars (well, except Craucher, she reminds me somehow of Mata Hari). And also as a woman I find strong and succesful women interesting, even though politically I don't really agree with them. I can't think of many (if any) as influental female figures in other countries as they were in their own right... Also it's interesting to see that even if times change, the same people or at least members of the same family still have an effect in Finnish politics and it shows how everything is connected in Finnish history. Also Tulenkantajat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulenkantajat_%... was an important group in the Finnish literature during the 1920s and both Paavolainen and Waltari belonged to it (and it was connected to Craucher and even to Kekkonen). But sorry, I got carried away... :-P

Tytti wrote: "That might be an interesting read, Bulgaria was in similar position as Finland. We just were luckier.

Because I am also interested in culture (and politics) there are some people I would like to k..."

Tytti: Thanks for a great post. From all my years in Soviet studies, I am very familiar with Otto Kuusinen -- for his roles as a revolutionary after WW I, a key leader of the Comintern, as head of the Soviet-Finnish puppet government during the Winter War and as editor of "Fundamentals of Marxism-Leninism." I am looking across my office at a bookshelf with my old dog-eared copy of "Fundamentals..."

Two Americans are buried in the Kremlin Wall: Bill Haywood, radical and founder of the Industrial Workers of the World and John Reed, the journalist who wrote -

Ten Days that Shook the World

His work is not that well known in Finland, actually, he is known only as a "Finland Eater" during the Winter War and for the fact that he was one of the few (if not the only) Finnish Communist leader who survived the Stalin's purges. Probably one of the most hated men in Finland. It was weird seeing his statue in Petrozavodsk.

And you of course know that the movie Reds was filmed in part in Finland and Reed was even captured here and sent to Suomenlinna.

Manray9 wrote: "From all my years in Soviet studies, I am very familiar with Otto Kuusinen -- for his roles as a revolutionary after WW I, a key leader of the Comintern, as head of the Soviet-Finnish puppet government during the Winter War ..."

I've seen "Reds," but didn't know it was filmed in Finland. I know some of Reed's work. In addition to "Ten Days..." I know his "Insurgent Mexico," about his time with Pancho Villa, and "The Education of John Reed."

Oh yes, not all of it of course. But it was the time when Helsinki was used as a stand-in for St. Petersburg. In the revolution scene they are on and around the Senate Square (outdoor scenes). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c13q2w... And probably some wintery and railway scenes were also filmed in Finland, and the part in Suomenlinna.

The Government Palace en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pala... is clearly seen and the statue in the middle of the Square is Czar Alexander II. It was in the staircase of that building where Eugen Schauman shot Governor-General of Finland Nikolai Bobrikov in 1904. The government officials put a plaque there but it's not really official (and not for the public). I used to work there so I got to see it, have a picture of it, too, somewhere.

This classic account is to be re-released by Pen & Sword (UK) in late November is anyone is interested:


by Stanisław Sosabowski
Description:
After seeing service with the Austrian Army in World War I, the author joined the newly created Polish Army in 1918. By September 1939 he was commanding 21st Infantry Regiment in the Battle of Warsaw against overwhelming German forces. Taken prisoner, he escaped to join the Polish Army in France before evacuating to England. In 1941 he formed the First Polish Independent Parachute Brigade and trained and commanded it for the next three years. While created for the liberation of Poland, the Brigade and the author parachuted into Arnhem in September 1944 and fought with great courage. His frank style and opinions resulted in major disagreements with his British senior officers such as 'Boy' Browning and he was forced to resign. Freely I Served is both a personal memoir and a tribute to the many brave Polish soldiers who fought to regain their country from occupation. An inspiring and revealing book.